Oldest Auto

[Rick]

I have always loved the switchblade , or auto opening knife .

The prototype must predate the 19th Century .
Who has information and history to share ?

Rick

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Rick

I have always loved the switchblade , or auto opening knife .

The prototype must predate the 19th Century .
Who has information and history to share ?

Rick

Did you just watch "West Side Story" ????
Interesting topic Rick, and hope the navaja guys step up!!! Lotta history in these.,

[Rick]

Blackboard Jungle, Daddy-o .

Seriously though; not talking gravity or flip knives here .

Spring loaded; how old ?

[fearn]

Supposedly, the Romans had folding knives, so I'd guess spring-loaded knives post-date Romans, and we know switch-blade laws are at least 50 years old. That narrows the time frame a bit.

F

[laEspadaAncha]

There was an episode of Pawn Stars featuring a middle-18th century coach gun with a spring-loaded bayonet (of the same period as the gun), so the idea of a spring-loaded blade goes back at least that far...

[M ELEY]

Spring loaded bayonets on firearms do, as mentioned, date back to mid-late 18th century, to Waters Patent muskets and blunderbus. Although the mechanism is relatively simple, I would still guess that this would be about the time frame for spring-loaded knives. Perhaps others have examples to show?

[M ELEY]

I know the "Deadliest Warrior" show causes groans when mentioned, but the episode of mobsters vs cowboys featured a quite graphic (and impressive) use of a switchblade used just as Wise Guys would have used them. I still shiver at the display at what these vicious little knives were capable of !!

[fearn]

If one googles "Oldest switch blade," you get an ad for an italian switchblade maker. Are they the oldest, or simply the oldest still in business? I couldn't tell.

F

[David]

From the Wiki article:

"Switchblade knives date from the mid-18th century. The earliest known examples of spring-loaded blades were constructed by craftsmen in Europe, who developed an automatic folding spike bayonet for use on flintlock pistols and coach guns.[1] Museum examples dating from the 18th century are mostly English and French origin. These exclusive pieces were produced one at a time from wrought iron and not considered mass production knives. Handmade automatic knives of this era may not have makers' marks or tang stamps and are hard to date or catalog.[1] By 1790, combination pistol/spring dirks became standard products offered by gun makers.[1]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switchblade
The above info is cited to Mark Erikson's Antique American Switchblades.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Interesting topic Rick, and hope the navaja guys step up!!! Lotta history in these.,

Hi Jim,
Navajas have locking systems to keep them open (as from the XVII century ?), not automatic spring opening devices .
... this not meaning that a navaja expert, ike Chris Evans, may tell us something about the switch blade semanthics.

[Rick]

I'd love to see some 18th-19th century examples .

Anyone ?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Rick

Blackboard Jungle, Daddy-o .

Seriously though; not talking gravity or flip knives here .

Spring loaded; how old ?

LOL!!!
Well I know the switchblades were around in '62, I had a couple and living in Southern California we used to get 'em down in Tijuana (they were indeed illegal then too). Some of the blades were up to 7".

Seriously though, great question and interesting topic.
Good clarification there Fernando, noting key difference between the locking blades, not the sping loaded device.
Great historical input too, was not aware of spring loaded bayonets Chris!

All best regards,
Jim (daddyeo) Kook-ie man!!!

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Jim,
Navajas have locking systems to keep them open (as from the XVII century ?), not automatic spring opening devices .
... this not meaning that a navaja expert, ike Chris Evans, may tell us something about the switch blade semanthics.

Hi Fernando,

Flattery will get you everywhere!

Seriously, I am not an expert on any kind of a knife, that is for the likes of Forton, Domenech, Levine and others with far broader knowledge base and resourses than mine - I prefer to think of myself as an informed enthusiast who has the good fortune of being able to access resources in Spanish on navajas and Creole knives - As for other typologies, I am woefully ignorant.

On navajas&clasp knives: These made their appearance in the early 18th century, following the Bourbon Ascension in Spain and the consequent weapons bans. Despite often made claims to the contrary, I have yet to see convincing evidence that lockable folding knives pre date the 18th century in Europe.

On spring actuated automatics: I have a book on Italian switchblades that claims that the earliest known specimen dates back to the early 19th century and the genre as we know it pertains to the 20th. My examination of 19th century folding knives, even the best made ones, suggests that the then extant cutlery industry would have been incapable of mass producing automatics; Hand made one offs yes, but not mass production.

Cheers
Chris

[David]

hmmmm.....since no one has responded to my previous posting it leads me wonder whether anyone bothered to follow to my Wiki link. I do realize that not all Wiki articles are worth reading, but this one seems pretty well researched. It continues as follows:
Examples of steel automatic folding knives from Sheffield England have crown markings that date to 1840.[1] Tang stamps such as Tillotson, A.Davey, Beever, Hobson, Ibbotson and others produced automatics that have either simple iron bolsters and stag handles or ornate embossed silver alloy bolsters.[1] Some English knives have what is referred to as a "pen release" instead of a central handle button, whereby the main spring activated larger blade is released by pressing down on the closed smaller pen blade. Also in the 19th century, folding French personal defense knives marked Châtellerault were available in both automatic and manually opened versions in several sizes/lengths. Châtelleraults have recognizable features such as "S" shaped cross guards, picklock type mechanisms and engraved decorative pearl and ivory handles. About the same time in Spain, Admiral D'Estaing is attributed with a type of folding naval dirk that doubled as an eating utensil.[1] When folded closed, the blade tip would extend beyond the handle to be used at the dining table. It could be spring activated to full length if needed as a side arm, by pressing a lever instead of a handle button,.[1] but this kind of knife is very hard to find now.
After the American Civil War (1865), knife production became industrialized.[1] The oldest American made production automatic knife is the Korn Patent knife, with a rocking bolster release.[1] With the advent of mass production, which enabled folding knives to be produced at lower cost, manufacturers introduced new and much more affordable switchblade designs for the general public. In Europe as well as the United States, automatic knife sales were never more than a fraction of sales generated by conventional folding knives, yet the type enjoyed consistent if modest sales from year to year.
By 1890, U.S. knife sales of all types were on the increase, buoyed by catalog mail order sales as well as mass marketing campaigns utilizing advertisements in periodicals and newspapers. In 1892, George Schrade, a toolmaker and machinist from New York developed and patented the first of several practical automatic knife designs.[2][3] The following year, Schrade founded the New York Press Button Knife Co. to manufacture his switchblade knife pattern, which had a unique release button mounted in the knife bolster.[4] Working out of a small shop in New York City, Schrade employed about a dozen workmen.[5][4] In order to expand his company, Schrade sold a portion of his business to the Walden Knife Co., and moved operations to Walden, New York.[5][4] There Schrade became the company's production superintendent, establishing a production factory to manufacture several patterns of Schrade-designed switchblade knives, ranging from a large folding hunter to a small pocket knife.[5]

[David]

If you scroll down a bit you will find a little bit more illustrated history on switchblades here:
http://www.websters-dictionary-onlin...&sa=Search#906
This guy has an impressive collection of old switches, though he doesn't give dates on them:
http://www.autoknife.info/
Below some midish 19th century examples...

[David]

Here is an old Korn patent spring assisted knife, though i believe that it was the cork screw that was spring assisted. These went into production in the USA just after the Civil War.

[David]

Here's a spring assisted blade from the 1880s.

[David]

Here's a 19th century H. Bunting, Sheffield. Sorry i can't be more specific on the age.

[David]

An here is a Chatellerault switchblade that is talked about as an early example in a couple of the articles i linked to, though i have no specific age on this example.

[Chris Evans]

Hi David,

Fascinating examples. How were they dated? Were they mass produced?


Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

Hell David,

I completely ignored that facet of your knowledge
... which compelles me to ask you: are there folding kerises ?

BTW, Chris is right; the examples you posted are rather appealing !

[David]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Hi David,
Fascinating examples. How were they dated? Were they mass produced

Well Chris, as Fernando points out, my thing is keris (no Nando, no folders there AFAIK ) and i don't really no much about these knives i've post. But i do have some serious Google skills.
According to what i have read from my research the Korn Patent knives were the first production auto-knives made in America, but it seems that in Europe they may have been in production as early as 1840.

[Rick]

Thank you David; you have made the thread !

[David]

Originally Posted by Rick

Thank you David; you have made the thread !

Glad i could bring my googling skills to the plate for ya...

[Berkley]

Originally Posted by David

it seems that in Europe they may have been in production as early as 1840.

I found one reference which suggests that by that time they were already known on both sides of the Atlantic:

William Beaver
This cutler appeared in a list in a Sheffield directory (1839) as a maker of lock and fly-open knives. The latter were automatic (or switch-blade) knives that were probably intended for the American market.

-Tweedale's Directory of Sheffield Cutlery Manufacturers 1740-2010

[Chris Evans]

David,

Great contribution to this thread and that Wikipedia article is very informative and a good one (IMHO).

I here reproduce snippets from Switch Blades Of Italy by Zinse, Fuller and Punchard:

The first automatics of the late 1700s-early 1800s, including those made in Italy...... While twentieth century switchblades are still assembled by hand, all their parts are to some extent mass produced. By contrast, all late eighteenth and early nineteenth century knives were hand made, one at a time...... from about 1830-1900 there are no known examples of an automatic knife having been made in Italy..... This lack of automatic knives obviously doesn't apply to England and France which were producing excellent automatics throughout the century..... and about 1920 in the cutlery capital of Maniago - Italy began once again to produce multiple variations of the classic stiletto switchblade.....Even Latama, the purveyor of perhaps the finest quality knives advertised switchblades as "novelties". And even the Italian craftsmen who made the knives didn't take them seriously........ nor were they intended to be working knives or used for anything - except perhaps stabbing. Perhaps part of the enduring charm of the Italian stilettos is their essential uselessness.... it would not be a serious knife fighters choice. Any decent fixed-blade military or hunting knife would be a much better choice....

Cheers
Chris