Composite Sumatran keris?

KLUNGKLUNG · 21st February 2014, 07:29 PM

Hello everybody,

This is most probably a composite keris with a very nice hippo handle of Malay origin ( ? ), indicator: the high crest. The wavy blade Bugis / Sumatran. But no clue about the selut and moreover the sarong. It is an old piece with a flashy wood pattern but the shape is odd. Bought as a Palembang keris but the features do not match.

Sajen · 25th February 2014, 09:01 PM

Hello,

since nobody else have comment until now I will try it. Blade is Bugis style but also found in Malaysia. Hilt and pendokok is like you write already also from Malaysia and when I am not mistaken is the form of sheath also a Malay form, very similar to the Madura ladrang form. Can you show a picture how the blade fit inside the sheath? Will do some research if I can find a similar sheath.

Regards,
Detlef

Sajen · 25th February 2014, 09:41 PM

Hello again,

I am nearly sure that you have there a very nice and rare keris Bugis Terengganu or Kelantan, the sheath form is called kusiwo or pucuk kacang. Sadly our Malay members are not anymore very active here in the forum but maybe one of them will jump in and will be able to tell you more.
Attached is a picture of a Terrengganu keris in a similar sheath taken from Malay-art-gallery (sold one). The form is not direct the same but like said similar. The wood from your sheath is made from kemuning IMHO.
When you not happy with this keris I would be happy to take it from your hands!!

Regards,
Detlef

David · 25th February 2014, 10:14 PM

I am inclined to agree with Detlef that this may not be a composite piece, but fully Malay in origin. I'm not sure that you nailed the sheath ID however, since there are some more than subtle differences with the one you posted. I am a bit confused by the way the stem terminates as most that i see from the Malay side tend to have flat bottom, not this rounded end.
It would be nice to see Kai Wee or Shahrial comment here as these types of keris are really their area of study.

Sajen · 25th February 2014, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I am inclined to agree with Detlef that this may not be a composite piece, but fully Malay in origin. I'm not sure that you nailed the sheath ID however, since there are some more than subtle differences with the one you posted. I am a bit confused by the way the stem terminates as most that i see from the Malay side tend to have flat bottom, not this rounded end.
It would be nice to see Kai Wee or Shahrial comment here as these types of keris are really their area of study.

Hi David, I am not 100% sure about the sheath form as well but think that I have seen it before and agree also that the stem end is very unusual. And I am with you, would like to read the opinion from Kai Wee, Sharial or Dave. Also Gustav may be able to tell us more.

Regards,
Detlef

KLUNGKLUNG · 27th February 2014, 11:36 AM

Thanks for the comments and hope the additional pics will be helpful and an invitation for more background information.....
My observations:
The ganja is peeping out slightly but not uncommon.
The tip end of both warangka wings are missing a small chip and the back of the sampir showing very fine haircracks indicating age, so does the dark dusty slot opening imo.

A. G. Maisey · 27th February 2014, 12:36 PM

Wrongko looks like a Madura kacir to me --- at least that's what this form is called in Solo. Don't know what it might be called in Madura.

The pendongkok/mendak looks like Surabaya work.

I'll reserve comment on what I think the origin of the complete piece might be.

Moshah · 14th March 2014, 04:32 AM

Hi there,

The hilt was bona fide Peninsula Malay, called Pekaka hilt locally, and famously attributed to the state of Kelantan & Pattani.

Usually a decent, old specimen would be in dark-yellowish tone, ageing naturally. Yours is a bit whitish, perhaps being polished with autosol or something - which is kinda degrading it's authenticity of ageing over here.

Blade could be Terengganu, but I think if you can post some pictures of the blade portion itself (base, mid and tip), maybe some other member can put more words into it...

This type of sheath was really a puzzling debate before. Pardon my experience and knowledge, but I can not confirm it was of Peninsula origin; I did not see much of this type around here but definitely there were a few, and it is always on blades which would be spotted with Coteng hilts - and usually attributed to Singgora (Songhkla) of Thailand. NEVER on a Bugis blade.

DAHenkel · 15th March 2014, 06:36 AM

A curious piece. Looks all Peninsular to me but with a sheath modelled after a Javanese Pasisir type. Others have already mentioned Madura but you also see similar sheaths all along the North coast. Its clearly well made and had seen some wear and tear it so its not just a made up or souvenier piece. Who knows what the real story behind it is but its certainly very rare. Good find!

David · 15th March 2014, 07:16 AM

Thanks for chiming in Dave. I was hoping to hear from someone with a better grasp of the peninsula perspective. I also got the feeling it was all peninsula, but it's only a guess for me.

KLUNGKLUNG · 15th March 2014, 10:27 AM

Thanks gentlemen for your comments and I will keep it as a rare find in my collection.

BluErf · 16th March 2014, 07:34 AM

Hello! Long time no see!

I'm leaning towards Sumatra for this. The wood used for the batang looks like trembalao. Something we dont see in the Peninsula.

The blade looks like Straits Bigis/Riau-ish.

Pendoko looks Sumatran-like.

David · 16th March 2014, 02:52 PM

Hey Kai Wee! Nice to read you. I trust life is treating you well.
Thanks for adding your ideas on this one. Seems we have some fairly diverse ideas working here.
Is it just the wood choice that has you leaning towards Sumatra, or is there something about the sheath form itself? And where would you place this hilt?

A. G. Maisey · 16th March 2014, 09:22 PM

Yes Klungkung, it is certainly a very rare piece, in fact, it may be the only one of its kind.

BluErf · 18th March 2014, 04:41 PM

Thanks David. I got a bit rounder, so I guess life shouldn't be that bad

Yes, my view was largely based on the wood. It would have to be imported into the Peninsula, and I haven't seen this sort of wood on the batang of a peninsular keris. The closest wood is bongor, which looks like this:

BluErf · 18th March 2014, 04:44 PM

Alan, this looks like an 'interpretation' of a foreign keris sheath style, so it could indeed be the only one of its kind.

A. G. Maisey · 18th March 2014, 09:20 PM

Yes, possibly an interpretation, but I was thinking in terms of mating.

If it is mated, its a professional job, and a few years back there were a lot of mendak/pendogkok exactly like this one coming out of Pasar Turi, Surabaya, usually silver plated brass or copper, but there were a few genuine silver ones too. A mating job such as this one might be was pretty common in that place around 20 years ago.

David · 18th March 2014, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Thanks David. I got a bit rounder, so I guess life shouldn't be that bad

I believe that is often a direct result of a good marriage…

21st February 2014, 07:29 PM	#1
KLUNGKLUNG Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 24	Composite Sumatran keris? Hello everybody, This is most probably a composite keris with a very nice hippo handle of Malay origin ( ? ), indicator: the high crest. The wavy blade Bugis / Sumatran. But no clue about the selut and moreover the sarong. It is an old piece with a flashy wood pattern but the shape is odd. Bought as a Palembang keris but the features do not match. Attached Images

25th February 2014, 09:41 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Hello again, I am nearly sure that you have there a very nice and rare keris Bugis Terengganu or Kelantan, the sheath form is called kusiwo or pucuk kacang. Sadly our Malay members are not anymore very active here in the forum but maybe one of them will jump in and will be able to tell you more. Attached is a picture of a Terrengganu keris in a similar sheath taken from Malay-art-gallery (sold one). The form is not direct the same but like said similar. The wood from your sheath is made from kemuning IMHO. When you not happy with this keris I would be happy to take it from your hands!! Regards, Detlef Attached Images Last edited by Sajen; 25th February 2014 at 09:53 PM.

27th February 2014, 11:36 AM	#6
KLUNGKLUNG Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 24	Thanks for the comments and hope the additional pics will be helpful and an invitation for more background information..... My observations: The ganja is peeping out slightly but not uncommon. The tip end of both warangka wings are missing a small chip and the back of the sampir showing very fine haircracks indicating age, so does the dark dusty slot opening imo. Attached Images

18th March 2014, 04:41 PM	#15
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Thanks David. I got a bit rounder, so I guess life shouldn't be that bad Yes, my view was largely based on the wood. It would have to be imported into the Peninsula, and I haven't seen this sort of wood on the batang of a peninsular keris. The closest wood is bongor, which looks like this: Attached Images

25th February 2014, 09:01 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Hello, since nobody else have comment until now I will try it. Blade is Bugis style but also found in Malaysia. Hilt and pendokok is like you write already also from Malaysia and when I am not mistaken is the form of sheath also a Malay form, very similar to the Madura ladrang form. Can you show a picture how the blade fit inside the sheath? Will do some research if I can find a similar sheath. Regards, Detlef

25th February 2014, 10:14 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	I am inclined to agree with Detlef that this may not be a composite piece, but fully Malay in origin. I'm not sure that you nailed the sheath ID however, since there are some more than subtle differences with the one you posted. I am a bit confused by the way the stem terminates as most that i see from the Malay side tend to have flat bottom, not this rounded end. It would be nice to see Kai Wee or Shahrial comment here as these types of keris are really their area of study.

27th February 2014, 12:36 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Wrongko looks like a Madura kacir to me --- at least that's what this form is called in Solo. Don't know what it might be called in Madura. The pendongkok/mendak looks like Surabaya work. I'll reserve comment on what I think the origin of the complete piece might be.

14th March 2014, 04:32 AM	#8
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Hi there, The hilt was bona fide Peninsula Malay, called Pekaka hilt locally, and famously attributed to the state of Kelantan & Pattani. Usually a decent, old specimen would be in dark-yellowish tone, ageing naturally. Yours is a bit whitish, perhaps being polished with autosol or something - which is kinda degrading it's authenticity of ageing over here. Blade could be Terengganu, but I think if you can post some pictures of the blade portion itself (base, mid and tip), maybe some other member can put more words into it... This type of sheath was really a puzzling debate before. Pardon my experience and knowledge, but I can not confirm it was of Peninsula origin; I did not see much of this type around here but definitely there were a few, and it is always on blades which would be spotted with Coteng hilts - and usually attributed to Singgora (Songhkla) of Thailand. NEVER on a Bugis blade.

15th March 2014, 06:36 AM	#9
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	A curious piece. Looks all Peninsular to me but with a sheath modelled after a Javanese Pasisir type. Others have already mentioned Madura but you also see similar sheaths all along the North coast. Its clearly well made and had seen some wear and tear it so its not just a made up or souvenier piece. Who knows what the real story behind it is but its certainly very rare. Good find!

15th March 2014, 07:16 AM	#10
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Thanks for chiming in Dave. I was hoping to hear from someone with a better grasp of the peninsula perspective. I also got the feeling it was all peninsula, but it's only a guess for me.

15th March 2014, 10:27 AM	#11
KLUNGKLUNG Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 24	Thanks gentlemen for your comments and I will keep it as a rare find in my collection.

16th March 2014, 07:34 AM	#12
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hello! Long time no see! I'm leaning towards Sumatra for this. The wood used for the batang looks like trembalao. Something we dont see in the Peninsula. The blade looks like Straits Bigis/Riau-ish. Pendoko looks Sumatran-like.

16th March 2014, 02:52 PM	#13
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Hey Kai Wee! Nice to read you. I trust life is treating you well. Thanks for adding your ideas on this one. Seems we have some fairly diverse ideas working here. Is it just the wood choice that has you leaning towards Sumatra, or is there something about the sheath form itself? And where would you place this hilt?

16th March 2014, 09:22 PM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Yes Klungkung, it is certainly a very rare piece, in fact, it may be the only one of its kind.

18th March 2014, 04:44 PM	#16
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Alan, this looks like an 'interpretation' of a foreign keris sheath style, so it could indeed be the only one of its kind.

18th March 2014, 09:20 PM	#17
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Yes, possibly an interpretation, but I was thinking in terms of mating. If it is mated, its a professional job, and a few years back there were a lot of mendak/pendogkok exactly like this one coming out of Pasar Turi, Surabaya, usually silver plated brass or copper, but there were a few genuine silver ones too. A mating job such as this one might be was pretty common in that place around 20 years ago.