Manipuri Chamtun

kronckew · 20th October 2018, 07:20 PM

Acquired this one today, Cham Tun from the Meitei people of Manipuri, an older and sharp version of the ones in the linked vides below.

53 cm. LOA, steel with wood haft wrapped in brass wire, brass disk om the pommel.

Manipuri thang Ta Martial Art video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ii9adOSloVc

'Nother: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-srjwsP8yd8

More: these look like mine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfbLJ6icQ_E

They are occasionally mistaken as 'African'.

kronckew · 23rd October 2018, 08:05 PM

The ChamTun (spear-knnife) is home.

Excellent item. Grip including the bolster is 30 cm., hair under a foot. about an inch or 2.5 cm. dia. at the ends tapering down to about 3/4, 19mm in. for about 3 in., 7.5 cm. of the centre part.

Blade is 9in./23 cm. Fullered both sides, inscription only on one side. 1 1/4in. wide at the bolster, hair over 1.5 near the tip, 3mm thick at the spine. The spine decorations are very well done. Cleaned some grime off with a plastic scrubber. It's laminated steel! Linear pattern.

'Habaki' style Bolster is steel. Looks like a fancy khukuri bolster

It has not been wound with brass wire as i thought, there are 2 decorated brass sleeves, one 2 3/8",6 cm. long just behind the bolster, another 4 cm. long at the pommel end. A 5mm brass disk is spiked to the haft end as a pommel & secures the aforementioned cylinder.

A 3mm. brass rivet about 3cm. from the bolster secures the blade to the grip through the brass sleeve. Wood haft is a dark ebony-like hardwood Very sharp little beast.

BANDOOK · 28th October 2018, 11:44 AM

Very nice Manipuri weapon,not much has been discussed about north east indian weapons from Manipur.Most discusions have been about their neighbouring state of Nagaland

Thanks for posting this Cham Tum
regards
Rajesh

kronckew · 28th October 2018, 12:01 PM

Yup, there is an slightly fancier ivory inlay gripped one with a loose ring set in the pommel I've seen here on the forum somewhere, and some more mundane ones (photo below). Tim Simmons posted one almost exactly like mine a while back, where they thought it was african.

Manipur is surrounded by Burma, Nagaland, as well as the other nearby indian states, and even Bhutan. I'd bet there was trade etc. that created cross influences.

kronckew · 28th October 2018, 12:05 PM

I suspect my 'Police truncheon' wotsit is also in this family.

RobT · 31st October 2018, 03:02 AM

Hi All,

Thank you Kronckew for posting this weapon. I had never heard of it before but now I want one. I noticed immediately how similar to a panabas the chamtun looks. The second thing that got my attention was how the blades were used with two hands to deliver rapid, alternating cutting strokes. In all three videos, only during lulls in the action were the blades held in one hand. Once combat resumed, virtually all cuts were made with two hands. The last thing that I saw took a while to register fully. In the third video (the most stylized of the three), I was taken by the ritualized poses that the combatants struck during lulls in the action. Two days after seeing the video, I realized that the poses were like those that I had seen on dha story blades. This led me to wonder if dha were (or are) commonly used two handed to deliver rapid, alternating cuts a la chamtun. I also wonder the same thing about the panabas.

Sincerely,
RobT

kronckew · 31st October 2018, 01:41 PM

I have friend who trained in the Thai sword fighting style in Thailand, he has told me before that the dha/daab was used mainly one handed, but would occasionally be used two handed for a finishing blow to a downed enemy so he couldn't recover and stab you in the back. Even the two sword styles are mostly for showing off and dancing. When they went into a real battle, they used a nice sensible shield in the left hand. Knowing how to use a sword in your off hand was useful too, in case your main hand/arm was injured.

They usually had fairly short tangs suited to a one handed style, so the extra force applied to the haft near the pommel was not reinforced by any extension of the tang like western or japanese hand and a half or two handed swords. It was there to balance the weapon. These Chamtun at least have a rivet or two to secure the short tang. Many dha/dabbs are just held in by cutler's cement/resin, and have done their job for centuries like that. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I suspect as they are close to Burma, they likely have had battles with each other and have adopted bits of each other's styles they found worthwhile.

Also, these videos are choreographed to be flashy and showy and more used to instill muscle memory like karate's kata. The stylized stuff goes out the iwndow in a real fight where to live means to be unpredictable.

RobT · 1st November 2018, 02:20 AM

Kronckew,

You make excellent points. I wondered what would happen with the alternate cutting if one of the combatants refused to cooperate and struck a second time on the same side. Talk about being unpredictable! As you point out, use of two hands on the sword precludes the use of a shield and I certainly would prefer to have a shield in one hand with a sword in the other. I hadn't thought about it but as you also point out, the dha hilt/tang construction was probably too light weight to withstand constant two handed cutting and parrying.

Sincerely,
RobT

20th October 2018, 07:20 PM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,186	Manipuri Chamtun Acquired this one today, Cham Tun from the Meitei people of Manipuri, an older and sharp version of the ones in the linked vides below. 53 cm. LOA, steel with wood haft wrapped in brass wire, brass disk om the pommel. Manipuri thang Ta Martial Art video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ii9adOSloVc 'Nother: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-srjwsP8yd8 More: these look like mine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfbLJ6icQ_E They are occasionally mistaken as 'African'. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 20th October 2018 at 07:42 PM.

23rd October 2018, 08:05 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,186	The ChamTun (spear-knnife) is home. Excellent item. Grip including the bolster is 30 cm., hair under a foot. about an inch or 2.5 cm. dia. at the ends tapering down to about 3/4, 19mm in. for about 3 in., 7.5 cm. of the centre part. Blade is 9in./23 cm. Fullered both sides, inscription only on one side. 1 1/4in. wide at the bolster, hair over 1.5 near the tip, 3mm thick at the spine. The spine decorations are very well done. Cleaned some grime off with a plastic scrubber. It's laminated steel! Linear pattern. 'Habaki' style Bolster is steel. Looks like a fancy khukuri bolster It has not been wound with brass wire as i thought, there are 2 decorated brass sleeves, one 2 3/8",6 cm. long just behind the bolster, another 4 cm. long at the pommel end. A 5mm brass disk is spiked to the haft end as a pommel & secures the aforementioned cylinder. A 3mm. brass rivet about 3cm. from the bolster secures the blade to the grip through the brass sleeve. Wood haft is a dark ebony-like hardwood Very sharp little beast. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 23rd October 2018 at 09:50 PM.

28th October 2018, 12:01 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,186	Yup, there is an slightly fancier ivory inlay gripped one with a loose ring set in the pommel I've seen here on the forum somewhere, and some more mundane ones (photo below). Tim Simmons posted one almost exactly like mine a while back, where they thought it was african. Manipur is surrounded by Burma, Nagaland, as well as the other nearby indian states, and even Bhutan. I'd bet there was trade etc. that created cross influences. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 28th October 2018 at 12:34 PM.

28th October 2018, 12:05 PM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,186	I suspect my 'Police truncheon' wotsit is also in this family. Attached Images

31st October 2018, 03:02 AM	#6
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 493	Three Interesting Things Noted Hi All, Thank you Kronckew for posting this weapon. I had never heard of it before but now I want one. I noticed immediately how similar to a panabas the chamtun looks. The second thing that got my attention was how the blades were used with two hands to deliver rapid, alternating cutting strokes. In all three videos, only during lulls in the action were the blades held in one hand. Once combat resumed, virtually all cuts were made with two hands. The last thing that I saw took a while to register fully. In the third video (the most stylized of the three), I was taken by the ritualized poses that the combatants struck during lulls in the action. Two days after seeing the video, I realized that the poses were like those that I had seen on dha story blades. This led me to wonder if dha were (or are) commonly used two handed to deliver rapid, alternating cuts a la chamtun. I also wonder the same thing about the panabas. Sincerely, RobT

28th October 2018, 11:44 AM	#3
BANDOOK Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND Posts: 624	Very nice Manipuri weapon,not much has been discussed about north east indian weapons from Manipur.Most discusions have been about their neighbouring state of Nagaland Thanks for posting this Cham Tum regards Rajesh

31st October 2018, 01:41 PM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,186	I have friend who trained in the Thai sword fighting style in Thailand, he has told me before that the dha/daab was used mainly one handed, but would occasionally be used two handed for a finishing blow to a downed enemy so he couldn't recover and stab you in the back. Even the two sword styles are mostly for showing off and dancing. When they went into a real battle, they used a nice sensible shield in the left hand. Knowing how to use a sword in your off hand was useful too, in case your main hand/arm was injured. They usually had fairly short tangs suited to a one handed style, so the extra force applied to the haft near the pommel was not reinforced by any extension of the tang like western or japanese hand and a half or two handed swords. It was there to balance the weapon. These Chamtun at least have a rivet or two to secure the short tang. Many dha/dabbs are just held in by cutler's cement/resin, and have done their job for centuries like that. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I suspect as they are close to Burma, they likely have had battles with each other and have adopted bits of each other's styles they found worthwhile. Also, these videos are choreographed to be flashy and showy and more used to instill muscle memory like karate's kata. The stylized stuff goes out the iwndow in a real fight where to live means to be unpredictable. Last edited by kronckew; 31st October 2018 at 01:54 PM.

1st November 2018, 02:20 AM	#8
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 493	Excellent Points Kronckew, You make excellent points. I wondered what would happen with the alternate cutting if one of the combatants refused to cooperate and struck a second time on the same side. Talk about being unpredictable! As you point out, use of two hands on the sword precludes the use of a shield and I certainly would prefer to have a shield in one hand with a sword in the other. I hadn't thought about it but as you also point out, the dha hilt/tang construction was probably too light weight to withstand constant two handed cutting and parrying. Sincerely, RobT