Two Edged Swords in Bagan

~Alaung_Hpaya~ · 19th March 2007, 06:00 PM

From the little we do know from murals and scuptures it seems that in Bagan ( Burma 11-13th Century ) swords were 2 edged and not single edged like the dha we know and love .

Here are some photos from Illinois University of Nat statues from Bagan. ( nat depictions usually always have them carrying a single edged dha ) with a doubled edged sword.

Here are some links to movie posters of KyansittMin ( the film about Kyansittha a king from that era ) featuring a double edged sword .

poster 02

poster 03

poster 04

I thought it might be of interest to the dha ethusiasts on this forum and begs the question about when the single edged dha appeared on the scene .

Alam Shah · 19th March 2007, 06:13 PM

Hi, I'm not familiar with the sword form, but the picture 2 and 3 of the idols seems to be holding spearheads, similar to those used in the movie picture.

As for the sword form, is it historically accurate?
Are there similar older examples, in museums perhaps?
Or other publications, books, magazines and other reference material?

Interesting...

~Alaung_Hpaya~ · 19th March 2007, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Hi, I'm not familiar with the sword form, but the picture 2 and 3 of the idols seems to be holding spearheads, similar to those used in the movie picture.

As for the sword form, is it historically accurate?
Are there similar older examples, in museums perhaps?
Or other publications, books, magazines and other reference material?

Interesting...

Most Burmese art is unfortunately religious and stylised . The film which tries to be as historically accurate as possible ( given the difficulty ) relies on such murals , bas reliefs and sculptures from that era of which there are many . The Burmese are great recyclers and apart from religion believe firmly in the impermanence of material things . This includes royal palaces which were made of wood rather than brick or stone which was reserved for the church . There are no surviving examples of actual swords .

Buddha statues/ reliefs from that era showing Siddharta cutting off his long hair also seem to show him using a doubled edged sword . I'll post a picture if I can find one .

Historically accurate ? ( this is cinema

)

RhysMichael · 19th March 2007, 10:32 PM

While swords in art are stylized it should be noted there have been double edged swords from that area. An example is the sword of Victory in the Thai royal regalia, as to when the dha as a form developed I know Mark, Ian and Andrew have been working on that so I look forward to their reply

Mark · 20th March 2007, 09:29 AM

Whether or not the dha was already in use in Burma as of the Bagan period is something I've been trying to figure out for a long time. It probably wouldn't be as much of a mystery if I had better resources and research skills.

I understand from Bob Hudson that leaf-bladed two-edged daggers have been excavated at Pyu sites such as Halin, which precede the Pagan era. Its not clear to me whether the swords are from the Pyu era, or from the later Bagan era (I have a report of the excavation of Halin somewhere, so maybe I can find that out). The Pyu were also a Tibeto-Burman people, so that might be some indication of what a was in use by that group of people, but there is no way of knowing. I have come across references to excavated swords from Pagan-era sites, but never with any photographs or descriptions.

I have the impression that the straight two-edged swords were something reserved for royalty, as even a sword from the Cambodian (Khmer) royal regalia is of that form, very similar to the Thai Sword of Victory in fact, though heavier.

I do think that the hilt/grip of the sword in the movie poster is pure fantasy, though. What you see in the art is all very similar to the handle seen on the Sword of Victory.

Mark · 20th March 2007, 09:35 AM

And for whatever it is worth, my Burmese "King" marionette is carrying a sword/dagger very much like the one the Nat figures are holding.

The "Warrior" marionette has a single-edged dha.

~Alaung_Hpaya~ · 20th March 2007, 02:52 PM

The dagger carried by the King is part of the Royal Regalia .

I don't think it exists anymore ( except perhaps in someone's private collection in the UK

) . He is wearing formal court dress usually seen in depictions of nats or other celestial beings . I guess the dagger is a representation of that used in Buddhist imagery since Bagan times .

Here is an example of a similar dress worn by a princess courtesy of the Myanmar Ministry of Culture .

~Alaung_Hpaya~ · 27th March 2007, 04:11 PM

delete dbl post

~Alaung_Hpaya~ · 27th March 2007, 04:12 PM

Thought it might be interesting to Mark and other dha fans that the fourth image in the original post and this image directly above is of the second nat in the pantheon of 37 Maung Tint De aka Mahagiri Nat aka Master Handsome Face. ( the first is ThagyaMin king of the nats )

Maung Tint De was a legendary 4th century blacksmith who met an untimely death ( burnt alive ) at the hands of a belligerent king .

Quote:

The belief in nats goes back many centuries. The first named nat was a fabled fourth century blacksmith, Maung Tint De, who lived with his mother and younger sister in Tagaung.

Maung Tint De’s prodigious physical strength and his popularity among the local people worried the king, who plotted to have him killed.

According to the fable, Maung Tint De and his mother escaped, but the king seized the sister and made her his queen.

Maung Tint De returned to Tagaung at the behest of the king, who then arrested him and had him burnt alive. Maung Tint De’s sister leapt into the flames to join him, and subsequently all their family died of grief or at the hands of the king.

Irrawaddy News

He and his sister guard the gates into old Bagan . I believe he is the patron saint of black smiths ( including sword makers ) .

Mark · 27th March 2007, 10:10 PM

Very interesting. I had heard of the legend of Maung Tint De, but not the other stories.

Nats have been very integral to Burmese life, and history. The delivery of bad news regarding a defeat of the Burmese army by the Chinese was supposed to have been delivered by a nat. As the story goes, the nats themselves fought in the air above the battle, and one (I forget his name) was shot by an arrow and fell from the sky. This in part lead to the Chinese victory, and the wounded nat flew back to the palace and woke up one of the king's advisors to give him the news (and the cause of the defeat, of course), which the advisor passed on to the king. The king was so terrified that he abandoned the capital and fled south, becoming subsequently known as "The King Who Fled From the Chinese" (again, I forget the precise name of the king, but the events are historical).

It stikes me as pretty clever to have a nat deliver the bad news to the king, as well as take some blame for the defeat. Otherwise the unfortunate (human) messenger, and likely the commanders of the army, would have probably lost their heads. You can't much complain if a nat is involved, though.

RhysMichael · 29th March 2007, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

I have the impression that the straight two-edged swords were something reserved for royalty, as even a sword from the Cambodian (Khmer) royal regalia is of that form, very similar to the Thai Sword of Victory in fact, though heavier.

Mark
I am going on memory now and my references are not with me. But I could swear I read somewhere that the sword of victory was made in Cambodia and given to the king of Siam as a gift ( Chao Phraya Apai Pubek of Cambodia gave the sword to King Rama I of Thailand). Have you heard anything about this ?

19th March 2007, 06:00 PM	#1
~Alaung_Hpaya~ Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 65	Two Edged Swords in Bagan From the little we do know from murals and scuptures it seems that in Bagan ( Burma 11-13th Century ) swords were 2 edged and not single edged like the dha we know and love . Here are some photos from Illinois University of Nat statues from Bagan. ( nat depictions usually always have them carrying a single edged dha ) with a doubled edged sword. Here are some links to movie posters of KyansittMin ( the film about Kyansittha a king from that era ) featuring a double edged sword . poster 02 poster 03 poster 04 I thought it might be of interest to the dha ethusiasts on this forum and begs the question about when the single edged dha appeared on the scene .

19th March 2007, 06:13 PM	#2
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	interesting... Hi, I'm not familiar with the sword form, but the picture 2 and 3 of the idols seems to be holding spearheads, similar to those used in the movie picture. As for the sword form, is it historically accurate? Are there similar older examples, in museums perhaps? Or other publications, books, magazines and other reference material? Interesting...

19th March 2007, 10:32 PM	#4
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	While swords in art are stylized it should be noted there have been double edged swords from that area. An example is the sword of Victory in the Thai royal regalia, as to when the dha as a form developed I know Mark, Ian and Andrew have been working on that so I look forward to their reply Last edited by RhysMichael; 20th March 2007 at 12:59 AM.

20th March 2007, 09:29 AM	#5
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Whether or not the dha was already in use in Burma as of the Bagan period is something I've been trying to figure out for a long time. It probably wouldn't be as much of a mystery if I had better resources and research skills. I understand from Bob Hudson that leaf-bladed two-edged daggers have been excavated at Pyu sites such as Halin, which precede the Pagan era. Its not clear to me whether the swords are from the Pyu era, or from the later Bagan era (I have a report of the excavation of Halin somewhere, so maybe I can find that out). The Pyu were also a Tibeto-Burman people, so that might be some indication of what a was in use by that group of people, but there is no way of knowing. I have come across references to excavated swords from Pagan-era sites, but never with any photographs or descriptions. I have the impression that the straight two-edged swords were something reserved for royalty, as even a sword from the Cambodian (Khmer) royal regalia is of that form, very similar to the Thai Sword of Victory in fact, though heavier. I do think that the hilt/grip of the sword in the movie poster is pure fantasy, though. What you see in the art is all very similar to the handle seen on the Sword of Victory. Attached Images

20th March 2007, 09:35 AM	#6
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	And for whatever it is worth, my Burmese "King" marionette is carrying a sword/dagger very much like the one the Nat figures are holding. The "Warrior" marionette has a single-edged dha.

20th March 2007, 02:52 PM	#7
~Alaung_Hpaya~ Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 65	The dagger carried by the King is part of the Royal Regalia . I don't think it exists anymore ( except perhaps in someone's private collection in the UK ) . He is wearing formal court dress usually seen in depictions of nats or other celestial beings . I guess the dagger is a representation of that used in Buddhist imagery since Bagan times . Here is an example of a similar dress worn by a princess courtesy of the Myanmar Ministry of Culture .

27th March 2007, 04:11 PM	#8
~Alaung_Hpaya~ Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 65	delete dbl post

27th March 2007, 10:10 PM	#10
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Very interesting. I had heard of the legend of Maung Tint De, but not the other stories. Nats have been very integral to Burmese life, and history. The delivery of bad news regarding a defeat of the Burmese army by the Chinese was supposed to have been delivered by a nat. As the story goes, the nats themselves fought in the air above the battle, and one (I forget his name) was shot by an arrow and fell from the sky. This in part lead to the Chinese victory, and the wounded nat flew back to the palace and woke up one of the king's advisors to give him the news (and the cause of the defeat, of course), which the advisor passed on to the king. The king was so terrified that he abandoned the capital and fled south, becoming subsequently known as "The King Who Fled From the Chinese" (again, I forget the precise name of the king, but the events are historical). It stikes me as pretty clever to have a nat deliver the bad news to the king, as well as take some blame for the defeat. Otherwise the unfortunate (human) messenger, and likely the commanders of the army, would have probably lost their heads. You can't much complain if a nat is involved, though.