Karud dagger with unusual chased scabbard

[francantolin]

Hello dear members,

today I come with a massive karud dagger
I just acquired.

Afghan or north indian origin,
The hilt is made of bone or walrus ivory.

The silver scabbard mounts looks unusual to me:

Makes me think of Tibetan-bhutanese daggers or kappala . Or chinese origin.

So maybe all was made in eastern Afghanistan area close to China ?

Or in northern India ?

Or a later add for the scabard ??

[mahratt]

Hello francolin

Congratulations on a good purchase.
Very interesting scabbard mounts looks.
It is hard to tell if this karud comes from eastern Afghanistan area close to China or it belonged to a resident of Nepal. We are accustomed to very specific forms of Tibetan daggers. And at the same time, absolutely Indian (in our understanding, daggers and sabers) were actively used by the inhabitants of this region.

[ariel]

IMHO, it is a typical Afghani Pesh Kabz with straight blade, popularly known among collectors as Karud. The chamfered edge is a dead giveaway.
The handle was repaired as witnessed by the inserts.
The 2x1x1 rivets occasionally were seen on Central Asian daggers.
I would not exclude elephant ivory as a handle materiel from these pics, the slabs suggest solid source. It is for you to decide. The bone, IMHO, is less likely because of concentric cracks at the top of the pommel and the absense of superficial short black lines going lengthwise: remnants of periostal blood vessels. Also, it might be interesting to see a pic of the top of the pommel: any long bone has a bone marrow cavity that would present as an " open space" in the middle. Would also measure the thickness of the solid " bony" materiel at the top: it looks very thick and it might be difficult to imagine a long bone with such a thick cortical layer. Walrus is also unlikely: no secondary dentin seen. I would not exclude the possibility of a scabbard belonging to another, smaller, Pesh Kabz with leather ( or fabric?) extension being added to accomodate this bigger sample.

I see nothing that would suggest, and am unaware of any similar dagger in either Nepal or China. Both are far away from Afghanistan.

These are just suggestions: you have it in your hands and can correct each and every of my uncertainties.

[francantolin]

Thank you Mahratt and Ariel for your comments,

I suggested bone or ivory because I still don't have it in my hands,
have to get it not too late I hope !
Il will post better pictures of the hilt and scabbard,
I would maybe see if the scabbard is made of one piece or has extensions as Ariel said,

for the Afghan-chinese link,
I was thinking of the eastern part of Afghanistan, Badakhchan province and the Wakhan district who has an east frontier with China
(south frontier with Pakistan, ex British Empire ,
north with Tadjikistan, ex USSR )
Tadjikistan make me think of the 2x1x1 rivets seen in central Asia as Ariel mentioned, maybe it's a clue...

For the Wackan people living there , they are few ''poor'' nomads in this wonderful but hard to live area,
don't know if they still have/had these type of daggers ?

Kind regards

[mahratt]

Hello, francolin.

Undoubtedly, this Karud dagger itself is of Afghan-Indian origin. Of main interest are the details of the scabbard.
No, Tajikistan and the Tajiks of Badakhshan certainly have nothing to do with the decoration of the details of the scabbard of your new dagger.
When I talked about the eastern Afghanistan area close to China, I meant a small area of the territory, which I circled in red on the map.
Unfortunately, I do not have photos with the native people of Nepal who have Karud daggers. But the use of talwars and kutars by the Nepalese is absolutely known. Therefore, the possibility that Karuds could also be used in this region cannot be ruled out.

Well, the second image that I am posting is a Karud in an absolutely Tibetan-Nepalese sheath from the collection of the museum Gugong in Pekin.

[francantolin]

Exact ! Wakhan nomad people living in the ''wakhan corridor'' area.

Nice and interesting picture of this karud with his coral turquoise silver scabbard in '' tibetan himalayan style''.

I wonder what is written in chinese on the description and if they call this dagger ''karud'' ?.....

[ariel]

Practice of "pretty-fying" weapons is well-known. For example, khans and emirs of Central Asia sent presents to the Russian Tsars: just a garden varieties of good, often wootz, daggers from India, Persia or Afghanistan were embellished with enormous amouns of gold, new gold scabbards with gems etc. They thought that kitsch was a good thing for a Royal Present:-)



And yes, Nepalese warriors used tulwars and katars. This is not surprising taking into account that Rajputs immigrated to Nepal as early as 13 century and from there on, evading Muslim persecutions. They brought with them their weapons. But I completely agree with Mahratt that there is no good evidence of "karuds" use in Nepal. I am also very doubtful that the Chinese example can serve as a positive evidence of anything. IMHO, it is a very pretty-fied garden variety Central Asian karud.

I still think that there is a stark contrast between the simplicity and crudeness of the dagger itself and the elaborate scabbard. Scabbards in general had a much shorter life span than the blades and most of the old bladed weapons are on their second ( third, fourth...) scabbard. In short, my guess you got yourself a pretty old Central Asian "karud" with an old replacement scabbard.

But after all, as a rule photos allow only very superficial assessment. Only having the actual example allows the new owner to reach valid conclusions.

Overall, you got yourself a very nice new toy. Enjoy it!

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by francantolin

Exact ! Wakhan nomad people living in the ''wakhan corridor'' area.

Nice and interesting picture of this karud with his coral turquoise silver scabbard in '' tibetan himalayan style''.

I wonder what is written in chinese on the description and if they call this dagger ''karud'' ?.....

Yes, my friend, your eyesight does not fail you
The karuda scabbard from the Gugong Museum is decorated exactly in "tibetan himalayan style". I deliberately placed the image large enough so that can clearly see the features of the decor, including the classic Tibetan use of red corals.
Unfortunately, I do not know what is written in the museum next to the Karud dagger. I think that in China this weapon had its own local name.

I think you understood my idea that although the images of the Nepalese with Karud daggers are not known, but since the native people of the region undoubtedly actively used talwars and kutars, as well as we know are also Karud daggers with scabbard decor typical for Tibet (at least an item from the Gugun Museum and Your dagger), it is likely that there was occasional use of karud daggers by the people of Nepal. After all, "travel" arms is not uncommon. I remember that in some old topic, Ariel gave an example of a Georgian saber, the blade of which was made from the Indian Khanda sword. Georgia is much further from India than Nepal is from India or Afghanistan.

[Battara]

In both cases the silver repousse work is fantastic!

[ariel]

Jose,
On that we agree.

[Ren Ren]

It is well known that Nepalese khukris were used in Afghanistan. I see no reason why reverse borrowing could not take place in the field of weapons.

[Ren Ren]

Let's not forget that in 1791-92 Sino-Tibetan troops captured half of Nepal and stood at the walls of Kathmandu. Emperor Qianlong forced the rulers of Nepal to recognize vassalage and pay tribute. Which was paid until 1911.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

It is well known that Nepalese khukris were used in Afghanistan. I see no reason why reverse borrowing could not take place in the field of weapons.

Very intriguing idea, I never considered it. My main hesitation is that weapons travel not necessarily in a " two way" fashion. Japanese adopted European side weapons, but AFAIK no European military adopted wakizashis or tantos. Indians adopted Persian shamshirs, khanjars and pesh kabzes, but Persia never adopted Indian tulwars, khandas, chillanums or bichwas. Nepalese and Tibetans were both using koras, but Tibetans did not have kukris and Nepalese did not have straight Tibetan swords.

Reasoning aside, can you help me with any factual evidence that Pesh Kabzes ( "Karuds") were used in Nepal, perhaps outside of their potential presence in museum exhibitions and private Nepalese collections?

How about regulation military weapons?

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

Let's not forget that in 1791-92 Sino-Tibetan troops captured half of Nepal and stood at the walls of Kathmandu. Emperor Qianlong forced the rulers of Nepal to recognize vassalage and pay tribute. Which was paid until 1911.

Sorry, but I must be missing how that would bring Afghani pesh kabzes to Nepal. Must be getting old and slow....:-(((

[francantolin]

I just receveided my new toy !

The hilt must be ivory ( elefant as Ariel said ) and a repaires piece made of resin...

The scabbard seems made for the blade,
not shortened...
The mounts fits good too .
The foliage work suggests me mongolian ( saw look like embossed silver work with stylised clous...)
or Himalayan origin as we said.
( coincidence ,the karud come home with snow falls today )
I forgot to mention it: dagger length 46cm,
52-53 cm with scabbard

[francantolin]

--

[francantolin]

And etched blade!
Couldn't resist

[BBking]

Really interesting find !

This one, not the same but a nepalese ivory dagger
from the MET, with a ''pesh-kabz... shape''
contrary to the usual nepalese knives or kukhris.

Really old , Dated 1650-1700...

[ariel]

The blades are different.

[francantolin]

Thank you for the picture of the nepalese '' pesh-kabz'' and link ( an amazing Garuda carved on the hilt ! )

For me the silver work on mounts is sino-tibetan
So I come back to the wakhan- eastern Afghanistan origin...
Two pictures: a tibetan kangling and a mongolian trousse set.
I don't think the scabbard was made in Tibet or in far
Mongolia but they illustrate the clear chinese, sino-influence.

[ariel]

I agree with you wholeheartedly.
Daggers and scabbards were usually done by different workshops. Moreover, scabbards were exposed to the destructive forces both from the outside and the inside and their lifespan was limited. Any old Oriental bladed weapon likely came to us in its second or third scabbard. Thus, attribution of any weapon is based on its handle and blade, but not on its replaceable scabbard.

What we see here is a classical Islamic Central Asian pesh kabz ( NB: Afghanistan is also historically a Central Asian (CA) country) with a scabbard adorned with “Buddhist” elements. Was it done by an itinerant master, by a Buddhist master somewhere in the Buddhist country or by one native CA Buddhist is not possible. Currenly, Buddhists constitute <1% of general population of any ~CA country, but how many of them were there in the 18-19 centuries is also unknown.

The same is true for the abovementioned example from the Chinese museum.

Thus, calling it a “Nepalese” or any other “Buddhist/Chinese” example is a mistake, IMHO. It might be Afghani/Tajik/ Indian, but that is the closest I can do.

We see it all the time: weapons travel and some of them acquire foreign elements.

CharlesS on this Forum is an undisputed champion: he is specifically fascinated by these mixed examples and often shows things that none of us ever suspected to exist.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by francantolin

Thank you for the picture of the nepalese '' pesh-kabz'' and link ( an amazing Garuda carved on the hilt ! )

For me the silver work on mounts is sino-tibetan
So I come back to the wakhan- eastern Afghanistan origin...
Two pictures: a tibetan kangling and a mongolian trousse set.
I don't think the scabbard was made in Tibet or in far
Mongolia but they illustrate the clear chinese, sino-influence.

It is very important to determine the "place of use" of arms. The dagger or saber itself could be made in one place, and then made a "journey" and used in a region far from the place of production.
For example, the vast majority of sabers and daggers in the khanates of Central Asia were made in Persia. And in the khanates, native craftsmen made handles and scabbard details in their traditional style. But looking at the resulting objects, we define them as "Central Asian" and not as "Persian". Although, of course, we can say that these are "Central Asian items with Persian blades." So it is with your dagger, francantolin. He certainly lived in a region with strong Chinese or Nepalese influence. Where exactly, of course, is difficult to say. At the same time, the blade and hilt of this karud could have been made in Afghanistan. But given the special details of the scabbard, to say that he is "Afghan" or "Central Asian", in my opinion, is categorically not true.

[ariel]

British 1796 saber served for a very long time in India. It did not make it Indian.

Then, when it was old and outmoded, Brits gave it to the Indians who threw away its steel scabbard and replaced it with a wooden/leather one. It still remained British 1796 pattern light cavalry saber.

Just as a man dressed as a woman is still a man.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

British 1796 saber served for a very long time in India. It did not make it Indian.

Then, when it was old and outmoded, Brits gave it to the Indians who threw away its steel scabbard and replaced it with a wooden/leather one. It still remained British 1796 pattern light cavalry saber.

Just as a man dressed as a woman is still a man.

Is are we talking about typical army arms, the place of production of which a priori cannot raise questions? Like we are talking about ethnographic items?
Are you ready to "o risk one's neck", claiming that this karud was made in Afghanistan?
By the way, if we change the hilt of a British saber to a tulvar hilt, we, of course, will know that the donor is a British saber, but at least we will clearly understand exactly where it was used.
Here's another example. The Khyber knife is undoubtedly an Afghan arms. But I think that any of the forum participants, looking at the Khyber in this photo, will say that this is an Indian arms:

[Ian]

Guys,

I think we are headed down a familiar path. As ariel notes, CharlesS (and others) have shown a large number of mixed-cultural edged weapons that have been discussed previously in this Forum. We usually have no clear information about the various items' provenances, and attempts to describe where these were made and used are often speculative. When attempting to place such items geographically, we often end up in the realm of guess work, otherwise known as "professional judgement" or "expert opinion."

It's interesting to debate these topics but, in terms of informing the reader here, it is perhaps most helpful to define the blade (e.g., karud, pesh kabz of Afghan type) and dress (e.g., indo-Persian), with a likely geographic attribution (e.g., Central Asian).

What readers here are mainly looking for is guidance that is fairly clear, but also expresses the uncertainty of its characterization.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Ian

Guys,

I think we are headed down a familiar path. As ariel notes, CharlesS (and others) have shown a large number of mixed-cultural edged weapons that have been discussed previously in this Forum. We usually have no clear information about the various items' provenances, and attempts to describe where these were made and used are often speculative. When attempting to place such items geographically, we often end up in the realm of guess work, otherwise known as "professional judgement" or "expert opinion."

It's interesting to debate these topics but, in terms of informing the reader here, it is perhaps most helpful to define the blade (e.g., karud, pesh kabz of Afghan type) and dress (e.g., indo-Persian), with a likely geographic attribution (e.g., Central Asian).

What readers here are mainly looking for is guidance that is fairly clear, but also expresses the uncertainty of its characterization.

Exactly true.

The process of defining a weapon is pretty standard and stepwise.

First, we define a type of a weapon in question: shamshir, yataghan, nimcha, kaskara etc. Easy.

Second, we try to pinpoint its origin. Manceau in France and Labruna in Italy produced very convincing yataghans that were not really Ottoman, but the names of the manufacturers were clearly stated. That was also easy.

After that, the tougher parts start.

Since sometimes the exact provenance is uncertain, we have to rely on the preponderance of evidence. The dagger in question is definitively a “ karud”. There are also some features hinting at its Central Asian origin: 2x1x1 rivets, certain crudeness of execution etc. However, there are no features compatible with Indian origin ( like the just posted khyber). Elephant ivory was traded widely and cannot help us. Thus, the preponderance of evidence is in favor of Central Asia from Afghanistan to the Khanates.

Lastly, we look at the decorations. Here we see very “ Buddhist” repousse motives of the scabbard parts. This tells us that they came from a different tradition. Whether this ” karud” found itself geographically somewhere else or the scabbard was decorated by a “ buddhist” master in CA is unknowable. In any case this “karud” never became an established pattern of a “Buddhist” weapon tradition but remained firmly as a CA weapon.

Thus, our final description may sound something like “CA pesh kabz with straight blade and a scabbard redecorated with “Buddhist” repousse motives”.

This is the best we can do with strange objects.

[mariusgmioc]

Or "CA karud with a scabbard redecorated with “Buddhist” repousse motives”.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Or "CA karud with a scabbard redecorated with “Buddhist” repousse motives”.

On the Forum,- as you wish:-) I would not do it if I were to write a book on Central Asian weapons, but in informal exchanges,- no problem.

But I am glad we agree in principle

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

On the Forum,- as you wish:-) I would not do it if I were to write a book on Central Asian weapons, but in informal exchanges,- no problem.

It is a pity that we will not see your book on the arms of Central Asia. Undoubtedly, it would be a valuable work, given your vast experience.

Complementing your definition of the subject under discussion, I would clarify that the dagger under discussion is: "Karud. The place of production with a high degree of probability is Afghanistan (if you made us all happy with a book about the arms of the khanates of Central Asia, you would know why this dagger has nothing to do with the khanates) "The details of the scabbard are undoubtedly of Sino-Tibetan origin. The use of the item most likely took place in this region".

[ariel]

And, BTW, I frown upon the use of the term “Khyber knife” in books and other professional publications.
First, this moniker was given to it by the Brits who did not know of, or did not care about, its real name.
Second, it implies that this weapon was endemic specifically to the Khyber Pass area. In fact, it was produced and used in other Afghani areas, in CA Khanates ( somewhere here there was a photo of a whole slew of them sold as butcher meat choppers), in India and (in a slightly modified form) even in Persia ( See Fiegel, #2095, 2096).

Interestingly, “ ch’hura” is more correct: it is a word with Sanscritic roots meaning a knife.
In formal publications the native term “ selava” is, IMHO, mandatory. It is its true local name and, having learned it, we are obligated to use it.

I take my hat of to Indonesian and Philippine gurus who are very careful, almost persnickety, about terminology.

Again, in informal exchanges we can call it whatever is convenient for the occasion.