Mandara short sword / dagger???

katana · 25th January 2008, 11:23 AM

Hi ,
picked this up....very similar in hilt design to Tim's example.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=mandara

The blade does not have a central rib though. It has a flattened diamond shaped profile, nicely tempered, forged with stamped/engraved designs. Steel seems to be good quality showing some age patina......almost certainly early 20th century...but wouldn't be surprised if it was earlier. Blade is approx. 4mm maximum thickness and just over 16" (41 cms) in length.
The hilt has the so called 'skull crusher' pommel , similar to the Tebu daggers, but this has a raised ridge around the edge , both sides (a feature I have not seen before). Handle is plaited/woven leather thonging over fine 'cotton' type material.

The scabbard is leather cored with a thinner leather covering which is hand stitched with braided leather 'detailing'. Four small holes near the throat of the scabbard looks to me that an arm loop was once fitted there, suggesting that this is an arm dagger.

Any ideas gentlemen ......thank you

Regards David

Tim Simmons · 25th January 2008, 06:49 PM

A grand old lady of a piece

Lew · 25th January 2008, 07:26 PM

Well done !

Lew

katana · 25th January 2008, 07:30 PM

Hi Tim and Lew,
thank you

do you think this is from the Mandara region?

I am impressed with the quality of the blade.... still quite sharp.....I'm fairly certain that this is a native blade and not a re-worked European one.

Will post some close-ups (later) of the forged pommel ...with its raised 'border'...in case it will aid ID

Kind Regards David

Luc LEFEBVRE · 25th January 2008, 11:45 PM

I think it could be from the Mandara mountains.
Luc

Jim McDougall · 25th January 2008, 11:50 PM

Me too.

Jim McDougall · 26th January 2008, 06:16 AM

Ok, now that we have a consensus that this is indeed a nice piece, I wanted to go with David's serious interest in trying to consider possible origins for it. The earlier thread on the most interesting Mandara arm dagger was very helpful, and that was a great learning experience on the weapons of these regions. I honestly had not thought of arm 'daggers' ever reaching such length, but as was shown, the weapon was worn pommel down with the sword/dagger in scabbard upward, which might have been considered I suppose some kind of quick draw rig

, worn on the left arm.

What is fascinating about David's sword is that it has the woven leather seen on the Mandara type daggers/swords referenced by Tim as being from "Waffen aus Zentral Afrika", as well as the pommel shape, though this seems more stylized as might be the case with a more modern (20th c.) example.
I'm curious about the pommels on these, which as suggested, seem to reflect those on the Tebu daggers associated with Fulani from Chad, which are of course arm daggers. The 'skull crusher' appellation is interesting, and I'd like to hear more on that, as well as what possible symbolism or image these distinct pommels are supposed to suggest.

What is key here is the clear indications of trans Saharan trade, and tribal interaction. While the hilt itself suggests the arm swords of the Mandarawa people of mountain regions of Cameroon, the pommel and hilt shape is seen on
the tebu arm daggers from regions to the east in Chad. The diffusion of these weapons seems obviously to have moved relatively indiscriminantly in either direction , and the size of the weapons themselves also seem to have varied much as seen in many ethnographic forms.

The blade on David's sword is the next point of interest, as it suggests its origins, in form at least, from even farther east beyond Chad. The blade is remarkably similar to the swords found in Dongolan regions of the Sudan, in its shape as well as the profiled outline in motif on the blade. Most examples of these blades seem to carry representations of a crocodile in the blade center.

This interesting sword, as already observed is probably early 20th century, and with the hilt, probably from any number of points along Saharan routes between the Mandaran western terminals to those in Chad, with a blade form from either a Dongolan influenced smith or a blade from those regions.

These are my ideas David, as you asked, and as always I hope to hear those of others.

All very best regards,
Jim

katana · 26th January 2008, 06:29 PM

Hi Jim and Luc,
thankyou for your opinions.

Jim, thanks for the additional, interesting information, as to the pommel design....

I am not so sure that it has symbolic meaning due to the diversity of the tribes where this design is found.....although it must be possible that originally there may have been...but the meaning now lost and the shape just copied

As far as I can tell this dagger is forged 'one piece' ...giving the pommel strength. Close combat with knives and swords often allows the pommel to be used as a 'bludgeoning' tool. Although the pommel is not 'heavy' , it's narrow profile would increase the 'pounds per square inch' of its impact. Used to strike the head it could easily (momentarily) stun or distract your opponent, before you strike with the blade. If the pommel was 'edged' and sharp it would add another dimension to its use. But carrying on the arm would cause injury to the wearer's arm when carried in the arm looped scabbard or hand as they draw the dagger.

This is just conjecture, on my part, I wonder if there are any other opinions...

Below are two pictures of this dagger's pommel and several Tebu examples for comparison.

Tim Simmons · 26th January 2008, 06:51 PM

It is interesting the spread of this hilt form. It may simply be a matter of ease of production form and function coupled with a matter of scarce materials, one imagines Africa is full of large game animals or cattle free for the taking. Bones and rags had a value in the UK you do not see rag and bone men these days. Clearly lavish things were made in Africa but I think we are not looking at a royal piece.
The piece I started a thread with may be for show. It could be a nasty weapon against an opponent armed with a traditional weapon. I do wonder how traditional local weapons were at that size as opposed to imports. Perhaps the one I have was only really practically possible with the new technology of the portable gas welding pressure tanks, so the problems of slag forming in a long blade could be overcome, untill the transition from locally smelted iron was replaced by imported steel to even the most remote centres of production. There must have been a time when the balance of labour to smelt locally and the cost of imported steel became very fine.

Jim McDougall · 26th January 2008, 09:22 PM

I'm following what you're saying David, the shape of the pommel in the peaked form would be somewhat effective for 'pommeling', particularly if the pommel was fully shaped. The concept of bludgeoning with weapons which obviously are intended for other use is it seems often overlooked by many. As I often confess I am not too keen on the martial dynamics on weapons as I typically am lost in typology and symbolism.
It is well known of course with single shot firearms in the early days, that after the gun was fired that in the heat of combat it quickly became a bludgeoning weapon (the large knobs on Caucasian pistols, steel caps on early flintlock and percussion pistols, Davy Crockett at the Alamo

In close quarters where combatants were locked in closely in a melee, and there was little or no room to swing a sword, pommeling seems to have afforded an almost instinctive solution to at least momentarily stunning the opponent. These are simply my lay observations.

While it seems a bit optimistic, I am wondering if the pommel shape may have had influence from the medieval swords and blades that found thier way in some degree into regions of North Africa. It seems well established that the elements of the hilts of both kaskara and takouba reflect influences of these European hilts.As has been discussed in other threads, the hilts of the baselard is likely for the Moroccan s'boula ("Zanzibar sword") while the hilt of the koumyya is believed to have come from the Italian (Venetian or Genoese) cinqueda.
Many of these civilizations in Saharan and West African regions have origins into medieval times, and in many cases adopted European weaponry and armor among many other cultural influences. It has often been discussed in literature and history that the mounted warriors of Bornu resemble medieval knights with lances, mail, broadswords and so on. The trade deep into Mali early brought the world awareness of Timbuctou. I personally feel that there is distinct possibility that the pommel shape of medieval swords (I think the style I refer to is 'brazil nut' but my Oakeshott references are not handy) may be at least subliminally represented in these distinct shapes.

As always Tim, you make extremely valid points, and I always find your attention to the metallurgy and production processes completely fascinating. Again, another of my areas of limited understanding and knowledge is that of these fields, and I like the way you explain them so that a lay person such as myself can easily follow. It really does help understand these weapons better to know more on how they were made.

Luc, I always look forward to your input, and given the knowledge you clearly have on African weapons, always hope for detailed observations and opinions. I admit I'm greedy that way

! You and the others into African
weapons have some keen insights into them, and I want to know more.

All best regards,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 26th January 2008, 10:00 PM

Jim, thinking about welding in the 19th century. All iron/steel or part there of, ocean going ships in the latter part of the 19th century would need on board repairs so the portable pressurized gas equipment must have been much more available than one tends to imagine.
David I hope you do not think I have hijacked your thread but thought and questions and hopefully answers come in roung about ways. otherwise all would be too easy.

25th January 2008, 11:23 AM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Mandara short sword / dagger??? Hi , picked this up....very similar in hilt design to Tim's example. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=mandara The blade does not have a central rib though. It has a flattened diamond shaped profile, nicely tempered, forged with stamped/engraved designs. Steel seems to be good quality showing some age patina......almost certainly early 20th century...but wouldn't be surprised if it was earlier. Blade is approx. 4mm maximum thickness and just over 16" (41 cms) in length. The hilt has the so called 'skull crusher' pommel , similar to the Tebu daggers, but this has a raised ridge around the edge , both sides (a feature I have not seen before). Handle is plaited/woven leather thonging over fine 'cotton' type material. The scabbard is leather cored with a thinner leather covering which is hand stitched with braided leather 'detailing'. Four small holes near the throat of the scabbard looks to me that an arm loop was once fitted there, suggesting that this is an arm dagger. Any ideas gentlemen ......thank you Regards David Attached Images

26th January 2008, 06:29 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Jim and Luc, thankyou for your opinions. Jim, thanks for the additional, interesting information, as to the pommel design.... I am not so sure that it has symbolic meaning due to the diversity of the tribes where this design is found.....although it must be possible that originally there may have been...but the meaning now lost and the shape just copied As far as I can tell this dagger is forged 'one piece' ...giving the pommel strength. Close combat with knives and swords often allows the pommel to be used as a 'bludgeoning' tool. Although the pommel is not 'heavy' , it's narrow profile would increase the 'pounds per square inch' of its impact. Used to strike the head it could easily (momentarily) stun or distract your opponent, before you strike with the blade. If the pommel was 'edged' and sharp it would add another dimension to its use. But carrying on the arm would cause injury to the wearer's arm when carried in the arm looped scabbard or hand as they draw the dagger. This is just conjecture, on my part, I wonder if there are any other opinions... Below are two pictures of this dagger's pommel and several Tebu examples for comparison. Attached Images

26th January 2008, 06:51 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	It is interesting the spread of this hilt form. It may simply be a matter of ease of production form and function coupled with a matter of scarce materials, one imagines Africa is full of large game animals or cattle free for the taking. Bones and rags had a value in the UK you do not see rag and bone men these days. Clearly lavish things were made in Africa but I think we are not looking at a royal piece. The piece I started a thread with may be for show. It could be a nasty weapon against an opponent armed with a traditional weapon. I do wonder how traditional local weapons were at that size as opposed to imports. Perhaps the one I have was only really practically possible with the new technology of the portable gas welding pressure tanks, so the problems of slag forming in a long blade could be overcome, untill the transition from locally smelted iron was replaced by imported steel to even the most remote centres of production. There must have been a time when the balance of labour to smelt locally and the cost of imported steel became very fine. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 26th January 2008 at 07:26 PM. Reason: another thought after diner

25th January 2008, 06:49 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	A grand old lady of a piece

25th January 2008, 07:26 PM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Well done ! Lew

25th January 2008, 07:30 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Tim and Lew, thank you do you think this is from the Mandara region? I am impressed with the quality of the blade.... still quite sharp.....I'm fairly certain that this is a native blade and not a re-worked European one. Will post some close-ups (later) of the forged pommel ...with its raised 'border'...in case it will aid ID Kind Regards David

25th January 2008, 11:45 PM	#5
Luc LEFEBVRE Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: France Posts: 472	I think it could be from the Mandara mountains. Luc

25th January 2008, 11:50 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Me too.

26th January 2008, 06:16 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Ok, now that we have a consensus that this is indeed a nice piece, I wanted to go with David's serious interest in trying to consider possible origins for it. The earlier thread on the most interesting Mandara arm dagger was very helpful, and that was a great learning experience on the weapons of these regions. I honestly had not thought of arm 'daggers' ever reaching such length, but as was shown, the weapon was worn pommel down with the sword/dagger in scabbard upward, which might have been considered I suppose some kind of quick draw rig , worn on the left arm. What is fascinating about David's sword is that it has the woven leather seen on the Mandara type daggers/swords referenced by Tim as being from "Waffen aus Zentral Afrika", as well as the pommel shape, though this seems more stylized as might be the case with a more modern (20th c.) example. I'm curious about the pommels on these, which as suggested, seem to reflect those on the Tebu daggers associated with Fulani from Chad, which are of course arm daggers. The 'skull crusher' appellation is interesting, and I'd like to hear more on that, as well as what possible symbolism or image these distinct pommels are supposed to suggest. What is key here is the clear indications of trans Saharan trade, and tribal interaction. While the hilt itself suggests the arm swords of the Mandarawa people of mountain regions of Cameroon, the pommel and hilt shape is seen on the tebu arm daggers from regions to the east in Chad. The diffusion of these weapons seems obviously to have moved relatively indiscriminantly in either direction , and the size of the weapons themselves also seem to have varied much as seen in many ethnographic forms. The blade on David's sword is the next point of interest, as it suggests its origins, in form at least, from even farther east beyond Chad. The blade is remarkably similar to the swords found in Dongolan regions of the Sudan, in its shape as well as the profiled outline in motif on the blade. Most examples of these blades seem to carry representations of a crocodile in the blade center. This interesting sword, as already observed is probably early 20th century, and with the hilt, probably from any number of points along Saharan routes between the Mandaran western terminals to those in Chad, with a blade form from either a Dongolan influenced smith or a blade from those regions. These are my ideas David, as you asked, and as always I hope to hear those of others. All very best regards, Jim

26th January 2008, 09:22 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	I'm following what you're saying David, the shape of the pommel in the peaked form would be somewhat effective for 'pommeling', particularly if the pommel was fully shaped. The concept of bludgeoning with weapons which obviously are intended for other use is it seems often overlooked by many. As I often confess I am not too keen on the martial dynamics on weapons as I typically am lost in typology and symbolism. It is well known of course with single shot firearms in the early days, that after the gun was fired that in the heat of combat it quickly became a bludgeoning weapon (the large knobs on Caucasian pistols, steel caps on early flintlock and percussion pistols, Davy Crockett at the Alamo In close quarters where combatants were locked in closely in a melee, and there was little or no room to swing a sword, pommeling seems to have afforded an almost instinctive solution to at least momentarily stunning the opponent. These are simply my lay observations. While it seems a bit optimistic, I am wondering if the pommel shape may have had influence from the medieval swords and blades that found thier way in some degree into regions of North Africa. It seems well established that the elements of the hilts of both kaskara and takouba reflect influences of these European hilts.As has been discussed in other threads, the hilts of the baselard is likely for the Moroccan s'boula ("Zanzibar sword") while the hilt of the koumyya is believed to have come from the Italian (Venetian or Genoese) cinqueda. Many of these civilizations in Saharan and West African regions have origins into medieval times, and in many cases adopted European weaponry and armor among many other cultural influences. It has often been discussed in literature and history that the mounted warriors of Bornu resemble medieval knights with lances, mail, broadswords and so on. The trade deep into Mali early brought the world awareness of Timbuctou. I personally feel that there is distinct possibility that the pommel shape of medieval swords (I think the style I refer to is 'brazil nut' but my Oakeshott references are not handy) may be at least subliminally represented in these distinct shapes. As always Tim, you make extremely valid points, and I always find your attention to the metallurgy and production processes completely fascinating. Again, another of my areas of limited understanding and knowledge is that of these fields, and I like the way you explain them so that a lay person such as myself can easily follow. It really does help understand these weapons better to know more on how they were made. Luc, I always look forward to your input, and given the knowledge you clearly have on African weapons, always hope for detailed observations and opinions. I admit I'm greedy that way ! You and the others into African weapons have some keen insights into them, and I want to know more. All best regards, Jim

26th January 2008, 10:00 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Jim, thinking about welding in the 19th century. All iron/steel or part there of, ocean going ships in the latter part of the 19th century would need on board repairs so the portable pressurized gas equipment must have been much more available than one tends to imagine. David I hope you do not think I have hijacked your thread but thought and questions and hopefully answers come in roung about ways. otherwise all would be too easy.