Old (?) Madurese keris/Pamor Ron Gendhuru Winengku

Gustav · 24th June 2011, 01:47 PM

Dear All,

I wanted to share some bad pictures of this keris. It is a huge one, blade mesures 40 cm. It is becoming pretty impossible for less informed people like me to guess if a keris with such more elaborate pamor is old or aged, yet this one perhaps could have some age. The visible (inappropriate) staining is what stays visible after getting down the rust in a pinaple juice bath.

There is an interesting feature in the blumbangan on one side, a circle like these we discussed a while ago, yet in this case it could be something incidental.

Gustav · 24th June 2011, 02:01 PM

Wrongko is of pretty poor quality, on gambar most of the pelet is painted, on gandar all. Probably not the original one, yet for some time already together - buntut of gonjo of this keris is leaving a patinated impression.

Hilt is made from antler, with somewhat unusual shape and ornamentation for this type.

GIO · 24th June 2011, 04:23 PM

IMHO recent Madura (or Yogyia) manufacture..
I find the painted scabbard really fascinating...

GIO · 24th June 2011, 04:27 PM

What I said before refers to the blade. The hilt is Cirebon

Sajen · 24th June 2011, 05:26 PM

Hello Gustav,

I am unable to say if this is an old or artificially aged blade from the pictures but it is a nice blade. Also when the wrongko is partially painted it is in my eyes a nice typical East Java/Madura wrongko and I can't see why you think that it is from poor quality. The hilt isn't a Cirebon one but from the North-East coast or Madura IMHO. But the bulge at the right side is irritating, never seen something like this. I am curious what others with more knowledge than I am will say about this keris.

Regards,

Detlef

Gustav · 24th June 2011, 07:11 PM

Gio and Sajen, thank you for your comments.

As I mentioned, I were not able to say, if this blade is old or recent. I just thought, I see here some features I never have noticed on blades of recent production, yet I am more or less familiar only with some things appearing on internet - a big handicap.

Yet I doubt, this blade could be made in Yogya.

I said "poor quality"regarding wrongko, becouse of the painted pelet, yet moreover the worn, thick edges of gambar.

GIO · 24th June 2011, 08:05 PM

I think the blade is in too good conditions to be considered old, moreover the nickel alloy is too bright. The uncommon bulge on the hilt could be due to the wish of the manufacturer to employ all the material available without discarding one part.
In my opinion the ensemble is very nice, the pamor is rather well controlled, and also the scabbard is not to throw away

Sajen · 24th June 2011, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Yet I doubt, this blade could be made in Yogya.

I said "poor quality"regarding wrongko, becouse of the painted pelet, yet moreover the worn, thick edges of gambar.

Yes, I doubt as well that this blade could be made in Yogya; it's a typical East Java/Madura blade in a fitting dress.

Of course are wrongkos of this type ( I can't remeber the name for) not so graceful carved as ladrang wrongko's from Central Java but they have it's own flair. And like we say in german: "the beauty is in the eyes of the beholder".
I have in my collection only one keris of this type and I put much energy into it to restore the wrongko (Mendak not fitting). But most ones of this type I have seen were worked from pellet wood and some from this were painted what seems to be usual.

Detlef

Gustav · 24th June 2011, 08:48 PM

Regarding the nickel alloy - here my photographic skills and other circumstances could be deceiving - I have put so much WD 40 on the blade (beware us from rust!

), that it could be used as reflector in the night. I guess, I overplayed a little bit.

Anyhow it seems to me, the "white" material is to dark to be PURE nickel, it is absolutely not shiny. Other thing - the dark material seems to be an older one, it's not so homogenous as the new one, and of course laminated. Yet it couldn't serve as a proof, I guess the smiths of today are sometimes using old material, sometimes it's already laminated, and if not, lamination takes not so long.

I could try to take "authentic" colour pictures, yet I am afraid, it is beyond the capabilities of my camera, and the blade isn't correctly stained.

I think, Gio is wright regarding the bulge on hilt, it is simply the place of ramification, under the bulge the core of antler is visible. In any case, it is one of the most comfortable hilts I have had in my hand.

Thank you, Detlef, for showing another example, the edges on your gambar are much finer.

I am interested to know, if the smiths of today are making such sirah cecak, gandhik with such lambe gajah, and such general shape.

Gustav · 24th June 2011, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GIO

I think the blade is in too good conditions to be considered old )

Apropos the condition - If this blade would be old, I don't think it could be older then 1850, and for this age it is rather worn.

Marcokeris · 24th June 2011, 11:07 PM

Pamor seems an opposite Ron Genduru (the same of a negative photo)

Sajen · 25th June 2011, 02:41 PM

Yes, so far you can see it on the pictures seems the blade "natural worn" and seems to have age. Pamor ron kendhuru, agree with Marco.

Regards,

Detlef

David · 25th June 2011, 04:50 PM

To me this "feels" like a nice contemporary blade that has been artificially aged. I realize that a "feeling" or instinct is not the most convincing method in an academic setting, but then again, the Warung is a coffeehouse after all.

If i held it in my hand i might get a different feeling from it. If i saw different photos it's possible i might have another opinion. This game of making judgements based upon digital images on a screen is always going to be a tricky one.
Even you seem to question the age at least somewhat or you wouldn't have asked for opinions on that aspect, though it is, of course, obvious that you would like the blade to have some real age. Who wouldn't?
The one thing i would do is consider both the source and the price paid. We do most often get what we pay for with most things. You would certainly expect to pay a pretty penny for a 19th century version of this pamor that is this well executed. A contemporary version, not nearly as much. Of course those sleeper deals do still exist. Did you buy this from a dealer or was it something found at a flea market of perhaps sitting in some old lady's attic for years? If it came from a dealer what did they tell you on age? How trustworthy are they? and even if they are trustworthy in your eyes even honest dealers can themselves be mislead and pass on incorrect info.

Gustav · 26th June 2011, 12:22 PM

David, thank you very much for your comment, you could be wright about it.

I calculated of course myself the possibility the blade could be new, actually about 75%. As Alan wrote, old blades with an elaborate pamor are very, very rare. I grumbled very long, if I could take this risk. I decided to do it, becouse I wanted to see and to study such pamor "live".

Here the somewhat better pictures I managed to take, for reference.

Sajen · 26th June 2011, 03:39 PM

I understand now better!

When the much better pictures don't lying I would hope maybe as well to get a very good old blade.

Regards,

Detlef

dewaruci · 12th July 2011, 07:32 PM

I thought the full name pamor 'ron kenduru wengkon", and I have one new keris in my colection, the blade from madura ( i ordered through my friend from madura), and one old keris pamor 'ron kenduru'

Gustav · 13th July 2011, 11:00 AM

Thank you, Dewaruci, for posting these keris. The new keris has remarkably good pamor control at the tip, such perfection probably wasn't achievable with old pamor forging methods.

dewaruci · 13th July 2011, 09:22 PM

Thank's to you too ... Gustav,
I think I've seen perfection like this with the integrity of 95%. a keris from the era Pakubuwono (PB) belongs to my friend. In my knowledge, perfection like that also exist in old kris, but I've seen, not maintained, severe corrosion, many iron pamor are apart or lost, so that we can not see anymore the perfection.
kris with pamor ron kenduru / genduru is one popular motif pamor, was difficult made and a lot of the complexity, but it also attracted many collectors or dealers, and the price is relatively expensive.
Ron = leaf, kenduru = small palm type plant.
post a photo kris kalamisani Surakarta era from the book of 'Encyclopedia of Keris - by Bambang Harsrinuksmo' might be useful.

Gustav · 23rd July 2011, 07:05 PM

I just want briefly to bring in focus the several ways to design the "white" parts of this pamor. There seem to be very different solutions, from classical parallel lines till a twisted pamor. On my keris there is a loop in each "palm leaf", interesting feature is, the layers inside this loop become there strongly diagonal, one almost get a feel of pamor mlumah there.

How is this done?

24th June 2011, 01:47 PM	#1
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	Old (?) Madurese keris/Pamor Ron Gendhuru Winengku Dear All, I wanted to share some bad pictures of this keris. It is a huge one, blade mesures 40 cm. It is becoming pretty impossible for less informed people like me to guess if a keris with such more elaborate pamor is old or aged, yet this one perhaps could have some age. The visible (inappropriate) staining is what stays visible after getting down the rust in a pinaple juice bath. There is an interesting feature in the blumbangan on one side, a circle like these we discussed a while ago, yet in this case it could be something incidental. Attached Images

24th June 2011, 02:01 PM	#2
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	Wrongko is of pretty poor quality, on gambar most of the pelet is painted, on gandar all. Probably not the original one, yet for some time already together - buntut of gonjo of this keris is leaving a patinated impression. Hilt is made from antler, with somewhat unusual shape and ornamentation for this type. Attached Images

24th June 2011, 08:48 PM	#9
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	Regarding the nickel alloy - here my photographic skills and other circumstances could be deceiving - I have put so much WD 40 on the blade (beware us from rust! ), that it could be used as reflector in the night. I guess, I overplayed a little bit. Anyhow it seems to me, the "white" material is to dark to be PURE nickel, it is absolutely not shiny. Other thing - the dark material seems to be an older one, it's not so homogenous as the new one, and of course laminated. Yet it couldn't serve as a proof, I guess the smiths of today are sometimes using old material, sometimes it's already laminated, and if not, lamination takes not so long. I could try to take "authentic" colour pictures, yet I am afraid, it is beyond the capabilities of my camera, and the blade isn't correctly stained. I think, Gio is wright regarding the bulge on hilt, it is simply the place of ramification, under the bulge the core of antler is visible. In any case, it is one of the most comfortable hilts I have had in my hand. Thank you, Detlef, for showing another example, the edges on your gambar are much finer. I am interested to know, if the smiths of today are making such sirah cecak, gandhik with such lambe gajah, and such general shape. Last edited by Gustav; 24th June 2011 at 09:11 PM. Reason: remark regarding hilt.

26th June 2011, 12:22 PM	#14
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	David, thank you very much for your comment, you could be wright about it. I calculated of course myself the possibility the blade could be new, actually about 75%. As Alan wrote, old blades with an elaborate pamor are very, very rare. I grumbled very long, if I could take this risk. I decided to do it, becouse I wanted to see and to study such pamor "live". Here the somewhat better pictures I managed to take, for reference. Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 26th June 2011 at 02:06 PM. Reason: pictures added

12th July 2011, 07:32 PM	#16
dewaruci Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Central Java Posts: 13	I thought the full name pamor 'ron kenduru wengkon", and I have one new keris in my colection, the blade from madura ( i ordered through my friend from madura), and one old keris pamor 'ron kenduru' Attached Images

24th June 2011, 04:23 PM	#3
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 313	IMHO recent Madura (or Yogyia) manufacture.. I find the painted scabbard really fascinating...

24th June 2011, 04:27 PM	#4
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 313	What I said before refers to the blade. The hilt is Cirebon

24th June 2011, 05:26 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,786	Hello Gustav, I am unable to say if this is an old or artificially aged blade from the pictures but it is a nice blade. Also when the wrongko is partially painted it is in my eyes a nice typical East Java/Madura wrongko and I can't see why you think that it is from poor quality. The hilt isn't a Cirebon one but from the North-East coast or Madura IMHO. But the bulge at the right side is irritating, never seen something like this. I am curious what others with more knowledge than I am will say about this keris. Regards, Detlef

24th June 2011, 07:11 PM	#6
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	Gio and Sajen, thank you for your comments. As I mentioned, I were not able to say, if this blade is old or recent. I just thought, I see here some features I never have noticed on blades of recent production, yet I am more or less familiar only with some things appearing on internet - a big handicap. Yet I doubt, this blade could be made in Yogya. I said "poor quality"regarding wrongko, becouse of the painted pelet, yet moreover the worn, thick edges of gambar.

24th June 2011, 08:05 PM	#7
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 313	I think the blade is in too good conditions to be considered old, moreover the nickel alloy is too bright. The uncommon bulge on the hilt could be due to the wish of the manufacturer to employ all the material available without discarding one part. In my opinion the ensemble is very nice, the pamor is rather well controlled, and also the scabbard is not to throw away

24th June 2011, 11:07 PM	#11
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Pamor seems an opposite Ron Genduru (the same of a negative photo)

25th June 2011, 02:41 PM	#12
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,786	Yes, so far you can see it on the pictures seems the blade "natural worn" and seems to have age. Pamor ron kendhuru, agree with Marco. Regards, Detlef

25th June 2011, 04:50 PM	#13
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	To me this "feels" like a nice contemporary blade that has been artificially aged. I realize that a "feeling" or instinct is not the most convincing method in an academic setting, but then again, the Warung is a coffeehouse after all. If i held it in my hand i might get a different feeling from it. If i saw different photos it's possible i might have another opinion. This game of making judgements based upon digital images on a screen is always going to be a tricky one. Even you seem to question the age at least somewhat or you wouldn't have asked for opinions on that aspect, though it is, of course, obvious that you would like the blade to have some real age. Who wouldn't? The one thing i would do is consider both the source and the price paid. We do most often get what we pay for with most things. You would certainly expect to pay a pretty penny for a 19th century version of this pamor that is this well executed. A contemporary version, not nearly as much. Of course those sleeper deals do still exist. Did you buy this from a dealer or was it something found at a flea market of perhaps sitting in some old lady's attic for years? If it came from a dealer what did they tell you on age? How trustworthy are they? and even if they are trustworthy in your eyes even honest dealers can themselves be mislead and pass on incorrect info.

26th June 2011, 03:39 PM	#15
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,786	I understand now better! When the much better pictures don't lying I would hope maybe as well to get a very good old blade. Regards, Detlef

13th July 2011, 11:00 AM	#17
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	Thank you, Dewaruci, for posting these keris. The new keris has remarkably good pamor control at the tip, such perfection probably wasn't achievable with old pamor forging methods.

13th July 2011, 09:22 PM	#18
dewaruci Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Central Java Posts: 13	Thank's to you too ... Gustav, I think I've seen perfection like this with the integrity of 95%. a keris from the era Pakubuwono (PB) belongs to my friend. In my knowledge, perfection like that also exist in old kris, but I've seen, not maintained, severe corrosion, many iron pamor are apart or lost, so that we can not see anymore the perfection. kris with pamor ron kenduru / genduru is one popular motif pamor, was difficult made and a lot of the complexity, but it also attracted many collectors or dealers, and the price is relatively expensive. Ron = leaf, kenduru = small palm type plant. post a photo kris kalamisani Surakarta era from the book of 'Encyclopedia of Keris - by Bambang Harsrinuksmo' might be useful. Attached Images Last edited by dewaruci; 14th July 2011 at 04:44 AM.

23rd July 2011, 07:05 PM	#19
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	I just want briefly to bring in focus the several ways to design the "white" parts of this pamor. There seem to be very different solutions, from classical parallel lines till a twisted pamor. On my keris there is a loop in each "palm leaf", interesting feature is, the layers inside this loop become there strongly diagonal, one almost get a feel of pamor mlumah there. How is this done? Attached Images