Extreme Skewness of Mahesa Lajer

[Karttikeya]

I would like to know your opinion about this keris. The dapur is Mahesa Lajer, but this Mahesa Lajer does not look like ordinary Mahesa Lajer dapur because its skewness tilting is quite high. Pls kindly notice the ganja high, it seems like Jenggala ganja characteristic and also sor-soran is very wide. Some people said this keris has some features of Pajajaran blade. But I need your opinion for this keris under discussion.

Thanking you in advance all

[Sajen]

Hello Karttikeya,

I don't know why your blade has this skewness but I think that it was smoothed by time. Like this it become so "skinny" and maybe (but this is only a guess) by this process it get this look.

My blade isn't smoothed and already filmy with "eaten" edges. Here my one and a other old blade.

Regards,

Detlef

[Karttikeya]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Karttikeya,

I don't know why your blade has this skewness but I think that it was smoothed by time. Like this it become so "skinny" and maybe (but this is only a guess) by this process it get this look.

My blade isn't smoothed and already filmy with "eaten" edges. Here my one and a other old blade.

Regards,

Detlef

Hi Sajen, after I notice your blade, I think my blade has more solid blade, it is characterized by tiny pore and slightly corrosion, probably my blade is from difference period than your blade. But again, I do not know yet, that's why I posted it to be discussed together. Yes, this keris has extreme condong leleh and disproportionately design. It seems sor2an is much wider than blade, I do not know whether it is original or has already been reshaped..

[A. G. Maisey]

This is an old blade and with smooth edges such as it has, it is certain to have had those edges cleaned up. This is a very usual procedure that is applied to a blade with badly frayed edges. It is regarded as an improvement to the blade and helps to prevent further erosion.

The rather low angle of the blade may have been original, but it is possible that it is also the result of a re-fit of the gonjo, or even the fit of a different gonjo. Old blades often develop a wide gap between blade base and gonjo, if this is allowed to remain it will contribute to blade erosion. There are a number of ways to correct the situation, and sometimes the rectification of the gap leads to an alteration in blade angle.

Adhesives such as Araldite are often applied to the joint between blade and gonjo for the same reason:- to preserve the blade and help prevent erosion.

With a very old blade, it is a very unrealistic expectation that everything about that blade will remain as it was when it was made. Keris from the 17th.-18th century are already old, and if they have remained in their area of origin they are likely to have had the blade edges cleaned up, the gonjo re-aligned or replaced, and most certainly have had many changes of wrongko and jejeran. If we find an old keris, with old dress, that old dress is simply that :- old, and the concept of "old" might mean that it was made in the 1950's. It is amusing to many experienced collectors and students of the keris that "old" dress is often so highly valued, especially amongst collectors in the western world.

Similarly with gonjos. It is a very unrealistic expectation that a keris which was made 500 or more years ago should still have its original gonjo. The gonjo is attached mechanically. Gonjos do come loose, all by themselves, with no help from anybody. The material on the sides of a gonjo where the tang penetrates is very thin, and in an old gonjo it is often found to be severely eroded. Part of the maintenance of a keris blade is to replace, or if possible, re-fit the gonjo. This should not be seen as something that makes a keris undesirable. Sure, its nice if the gonjo is original, or at least looks original, but it is no big deal if it is not.

Sometimes a gonjo was intentionally removed from a keris, and was incorporated into the forging of a new keris, thus transferring some of the essence of the older keris to a new one, this was particularly the case with a keris of quality that was deemed to possess esoteric powers. A missing or replaced, or reset gonjo is no big deal. Yes, the fact that something has happened to the gonjo will be reflected in its value, but it does not make the keris something that should not be valued.

[Karttikeya]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

This is an old blade and with smooth edges such as it has, it is certain to have had those edges cleaned up. This is a very usual procedure that is applied to a blade with badly frayed edges. It is regarded as an improvement to the blade and helps to prevent further erosion.

The rather low angle of the blade may have been original, but it is possible that it is also the result of a re-fit of the gonjo, or even the fit of a different gonjo. Old blades often develop a wide gap between blade base and gonjo, if this is allowed to remain it will contribute to blade erosion. There are a number of ways to correct the situation, and sometimes the rectification of the gap leads to an alteration in blade angle.

Adhesives such as Araldite are often applied to the joint between blade and gonjo for the same reason:- to preserve the blade and help prevent erosion.

With a very old blade, it is a very unrealistic expectation that everything about that blade will remain as it was when it was made. Keris from the 17th.-18th century are already old, and if they have remained in their area of origin they are likely to have had the blade edges cleaned up, the gonjo re-aligned or replaced, and most certainly have had many changes of wrongko and jejeran. If we find an old keris, with old dress, that old dress is simply that :- old, and the concept of "old" might mean that it was made in the 1950's. It is amusing to many experienced collectors and students of the keris that "old" dress is often so highly valued, especially amongst collectors in the western world.

Similarly with gonjos. It is a very unrealistic expectation that a keris which was made 500 or more years ago should still have its original gonjo. The gonjo is attached mechanically. Gonjos do come loose, all by themselves, with no help from anybody. The material on the sides of a gonjo where the tang penetrates is very thin, and in an old gonjo it is often found to be severely eroded. Part of the maintenance of a keris blade is to replace, or if possible, re-fit the gonjo. This should not be seen as something that makes a keris undesirable. Sure, its nice if the gonjo is original, or at least looks original, but it is no big deal if it is not.

Sometimes a gonjo was intentionally removed from a keris, and was incorporated into the forging of a new keris, thus transferring some of the essence of the older keris to a new one, this was particularly the case with a keris of quality that was deemed to possess esoteric powers. A missing or replaced, or reset gonjo is no big deal. Yes, the fact that something has happened to the gonjo will be reflected in its value, but it does not make the keris something that should not be valued.

Pak Alan, thank you for such valuable informations. In my opinion, the gonjo is original because I tried to compare gonjo material to blade material visually and it seems was made of same material, buat I am not sure..I think it is quite realistic expectation for which keris was made 500 years or more to have its original gonjo. If we talk about warangka, yes I agree we cannot expect to have original dress because mostly they were made of wood..
Regarding skewness, is there any meaning for slanting degree of skewness or is it a parameter to know certain tangguh?
Thank you..

[A. G. Maisey]

The sticking point here is "500 years".

That's pre-1500.

Daha fell 1527 --- or 1525 depending on what one accepts.

End of the Majapahit line.

1468 Brawijaya V converted to Islam.

End of the Kingdom of Majapahit.

The Candela, Tuca and M'leca did not carry keris. A few Sudra might have. Effectively that left the K'satriya.How many K'satriya in Majapahit?

Thus, how many keris existed in Jawa pre-1500?

The keris seems to have blossomed as an arm of the population as whole after the advent of Islam.

It is wise not to align tangguh with era.

A very great number of keris to which the Javanese keris belief system attributes considerable age are nowhere near the age that the belief system attributes to them.

Because of climate and the standard maintenance procedures followed in Jawa, combined with the original population of keris, there are in fact very few keris that can be reliably accepted as being more than 500 years old.

Very old keris which do not use a metuk have often had their gonjos replaced.


Blade angle can be used as an indicator for some tangguh classifications, but I do not know of any tangguh classification that has a blade angle as low as this keris as an indicator.

[Karttikeya]

Pak Alan, you mentioned that it is wise not to align tangguh with era, really I do not quite understand. The name of each tangguh itself is adopted from particular kingdom such Pajajaran, Majapahit, etc so that it will refer to certain period of related kingdom. Let say if we call one keris as Pajajaran keris so we will imagine that this keris was made in Pajajaran kingdom period. But if we do not align tangguh with era, Pajajaran blade does not mean it was made in Pajajaran kingdom period, is it?
Then also you mentioned that very few keris pre 1500, actually so many "Majapahit" keris are being offered by seller in the market, surely the seller has classified their keris into certain tangguh base on features of tangguh then they will convince that the keris fit labeled tangguh whenever serious buyer asking tangguh. So in fact they are cheating us if we do not align tangguh with era, tangguh Majapahit but exact date of the production is out of Majapahit area or later period.
Regarding condong leleh, I have ever heard there is Hasta Brata to consider blade angle, I do not know what is Hasta Brata, probably you are willing to explain that.
Sorry my english is bad or sounds Indonesian-English..Hopefully you can understand what I mean..
Thanking you in advance

[A. G. Maisey]

Karttikeya, I was taught a Solo interpretation of tangguh, by a Karaton empu who truly believed that if a keris was classified as tangguh Majapahit, it was made in the Kingdom of Majapahit, during the Majapahit era.

My teacher taught me as much as I was able to absorb between 1982 and 1995. I never, ever debated, nor argued about anything he taught me. When I was in his presence I accepted everything that he told me as indisputable fact, I adopted the Javanese mode of thought and I accepted all of the tenets of the Javanese keris belief system.

In discussion with a person who follows this belief system I still act in exactly the same way. I am not intent on changing the way in which people who follow Javanese keris beliefs and current philosophy see the keris and its place in the world. As far as I'm concerned everybody can believe whatever they wish. I don't argue with Muslims about their beliefs, I don't argue with Christians about their beliefs, and I don't argue with people who follow Javanese keris beliefs about their beliefs.

You tell us you are Indonesian, which might mean Javanese, or it might mean something else, but I am more than happy for you to believe whatever you wish about the truth of tangguh, and I will make no attempt to alter your beliefs.

If you care to go here:-

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/keristangguh.html

you can read a short article I wrote some time ago in an attempt to assist people in western societies to understand a little of what "tangguh" means.

I am not asking you to accept this. You should continue to believe whatever you are happy to believe.

However, the fact remains, that much of the knowledge associated with keris is knowledge of a belief system, not knowledge of the keris. This can be demonstrated, but I am of the opinion that this forum is not the proper place to become involved in such a demonstration.

Although tangguh is a system that originated in Jawa, you will find that many Javanese people in Central Jawa hold a similar opinion about tangguh to my opinion. They express this by saying:-

Tangguh nggak sungguh ---I'm certain you will understand what this means.

Quite simply, tangguh is a classification system that was developed for a specific purpose, that purpose is now long past, and the system has become corrupted because of the tendency of many people to want to place a tangguh classification on every keris ever made, and if there is no classification that is suitable, they will invent one.

But I will not speak like this in Jawa.

As for "hasta brata" , I do not know the term. "hasta" is a measure that is given in cubits( units of about 46cm), "brata" I do not understand clearly, I think it is krama inggil, and is associated with the way in which one lives one's life and with meditation and holy attitude, or in another context, it can mean loyal or faithful I think --- as I said, I don't understand the word clearly. I do understand how blade angle is set, but that is a function of making a blade, not anything to do with classifying a blade.


Incidentally, there is nothing wrong with your English, it is clear and easy to understand. I know native speakers of English who write worse than you do.

[PenangsangII]

from various sources esp from my spiritual teacher in kerisology, kerises of pre sultan agung era were very limited in numbers because keris was quite exclusive to certain level of society only, keris was also expensive to commission as those days payment to the empu was some what like at least a buffalo for a pusaka keris. However, during Sultan Agung era, where commerce with other nations blossomed, raw material became easily available, wealth and standard of living improved thus moe ppl could afford pusaka kerises, not to mention the sultan agung himself encouraged the keris culture and inspired as seen in todays keris culture. So, its safe to say, that most very aged keris if authentic, must be from sultan agung era and after