A sucker is born every minute!

[Lew]

There seems to be two magic words these days that invokes a frenzy of bidding the first one is Zulu and the other is American Indian (two words).
This poor fool was taken to the cleaners on this item.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-American...QQcmdZViewItem

Of course I contacted the seller days before it was over and told him what it was but he claims he got it from an old antique dealer that said it was Native American. I tried to contact the winner but ebay blocked the email. So I wrote ebay and their reply was we just post the stuff we don't police our own website. I wrote back to ebay saying their polices help promote fraud but of course the buck is the bottom line with them.

Lew

[Andrew]

African American Indian?

Caveat emptor.

[ariel]

Lew,
You are, of course, correct.
However, in defence of both the seller and, especially, the E-Bay: how do they know that you know what you are talking about? Why should the seller disregard the opinion of a professional antique dealer who has (or claims to have) the provenance of the item simply because somebody is asserting that the ID is wrong?
With E-Bay it is even stickier: by allowing outside interference one would open the door to dishonest competition. One can send an e-mail to a potential buyer asserting that an item in question is a fake, overpriced, stolen etc and offer instead something from his stock (fake,overpriced, stolen etc).
Entering free market entails risks.
Knowledge helps.
Buyer beware.
Fools part with their money all the time.
All of us certainly did, sometime or another. I have no pity for them or for our own misfortunes: this is the price of learning if one wants to make it so.
And if the naif still wants to believe that this dagger one belonged to a famous Apache chief, let him hang it on the wall next to a tomahawk stamped " Made in Taiwan". It makes no difference to him: he wants to believe and he does. He bought himself pride and happiness for $300. Cheap for the price.

[asomotif]

A very good point by Ariel.
but indeed I also get slightly irrititated when I see people spending money on fakes or wronlgy described items, and surely in the past I have warned both sellers as buyers/bidders ocassionaly.

Problem is that we forumites often have a lot of knowledge on weapons
The majority of the people only know what they are buying because the sellers tells them what it is. Ans if he tells a nice story they buy it.

[Jim McDougall]

Wise words from our resident ebay observer !
I do agree that there is a degree of responsibility borne by the consumer, especially in the case of antiques of any kind. We have to remember that anyone selling something will often put on a spin, either by embellishment or omission as well. It is well known that many sellers/dealers use varying degrees of bait and always hope for wide eyed, empassioned enthusiasts who either ignore what they know hoping for a bargain or simply do not have adequate knowledge nor research done to avoid misfortune in a purchase.
In retail consuming, the term is 'fine print', in antique purchasing we know the term well...caveat emptor!

Thats why the forum is here, to discuss and learn, and hopefully help in avoiding potentially expensive misteakes!

Best regards,
Jim

[kronckew]

i've warned a few sellers on ebay, where they were blatently wrong. they do not appreciate it. there was a "19c. indo-persian Kard" recently that i emailed the seller, a dealer, that it was in fact a north african bou saddi knife, gave him a link to the forum discussions on them, and a picture of one here that looked almost exactly like the one being sold. his response was, 'possibly, but the collector who sold it to me said it was a persian kard.' i replied that collectors were known to be wrong, pointed him at another dealer that had yet another one for sale on ebay, but properly id'd as an algerian bou saddi knife. it did no good i am sure. honesty does not get the big auction bucks. i did not bother to say that the carved and painted circles on the handle looked quite new, as did the handle itself and the nice clean red leather scabbard.

if they are dishonest you won't change their mind, or if their brother's cousins friends automechanic thinks it's an authentic Iroquois dagger from the revolutionary war, you ain't gonna change their mind either. they believe what they want. the ones it might help are those who are honest and say they are not sure what it is and have an open mind and an interest.

[Andrew]

The only thing I've done in recent years is contact sellers that blatently plagiarize something I personally wrote (or collaborated on) for an item's description.

I've never received any response to that type of communication.

[Bill M]

[VANDOO]

"YOU CAN LEAD A HORSE TO WATER BUT YOU CANNOT MAKE HIM DRINK"

MY FAVORITE STORY OF THAT TYPE IS.

I WAS AT A LOCAL GUN SHOW AND SAW A DEALER WITH A VERY LARGE PIECE OF SAMOAN TAPPA CLOTH. WHEN I WENT OVER TO LOOK AT IT HE HAD IT IDENTIFED AS A RARE SOUIX WAR BLANKET AND HAD A VERY HIGH PRICE ON IT. I TOLD HIM WHAT IT REALLY WAS EVEN EXPLAINING THE WAY IT WAS MADE AND THE MATERIALS USED AND SOME OF THE DESIGNS, PRICE WAS NOT MENTIONED.
I WENT BACK BY HIS BOOTH THE NEXT DAY AND LOOKED AT IT AND NOTHING HAD BEEN CHANGED. I AM SURE SOUIX WILL BRING MORE MONEY THAN SAMOAN TAPA SO HE WAS NOT ABOUT TO CHANGE IT EVEN IF HE KNEW I WAS RIGHT. PERHAPS HE WAS TAKEN BY SOMEONE WHEN HE BOUGHT IT AND WAS DETERMINED TO HANG ON TO IT AND NOT LOSE MONEY AND HOPE TO UNLOAD IT ON SOME OTHER SUCKER. IT IS NOT UNUSUAL FOR PEOPLE TO IGNORE ADVICE GIVEN OR ARGUE AS THEY DON'T WANT TO ADMIT THEY ARE WRONG.

VARIOUS TYPES OF SCAMS ARE BECOMING MORE COMMON ON EBAY AS THE PENALTYS ARE SMALL AND THE POTENTIAL FOR PROFIT GOOD. THIS YEAR I HAVE HAD THE FIRST TWO EBAY SELLERS TAKE MY MONEY AND THEN FOLD UP THEIR TENTS AND DISSAPEAR INTO THE NIGHT. EBAY WAS OF NO HELP AND THE SELLER NEVER DID ANSWER ANY EMAILS OR SEND MY ITEMS, I DID WATCH AND SEE THE FEEDBACK GO DOWN TO LOWER THAN CONGRESS CURRENT RATEINGS SO THAT TELLS ME I WAS NOT ALONE. THE SELLER WILL NO DOUBT BE FREE TO OPEN UP AGAIN UNDER ANOTHER NAME AND ADDRESS AND DO IT AGAIN IN FUTURE. ONE SELLER WAS IN BORNEO AND THE OTHER WAS IN CHINA, THE ONE IN CHINA WAS SELLING UNDER 3 DIFFERENT NAMES AND UNLOADED A LOT OF MERCHANDISE. PERHAPS CHINA IS TRYING TO GET A REPUTATION LIKE NIGERIA FOR SCAMS, FRAUD, CONS AND RIP OFFS.

[Bill M]

There seem to be two broad categories of sellers. Those that know they are selling fakes and those that have been misinformed. Usually neither want to hear our truth.

My favorite story, Barry, is about the boy scout who comes home beat up. His mother asked him what happened? He said, "I was trying to help an old lady cross the street and she didn't want to go!"

I usually fail -- in fact I am failing right now by writing this -- I TRY NOT to offer unsolicited advice.

The Berbers have a saying, "He who tells the truth better have one foot in the stirrup!"

[spiral]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

". ONE SELLER WAS IN BORNEO AND THE OTHER WAS IN CHINA, THE ONE IN CHINA WAS SELLING UNDER 3 DIFFERENT NAMES AND UNLOADED A LOT OF MERCHANDISE. PERHAPS CHINA IS TRYING TO GET A REPUTATION LIKE NIGERIA FOR SCAMS, FRAUD, CONS AND RIP OFFS.

Those 2 plus South Africa, Malaya & Ukraine are all such high risks I wont buy from them & have risked negative feedback by saying cash only to buyers from them, despite usualy saying paypal only.

Just look up credit card Fraud & see who tops the lists, mostly its the same for all web Fraud. My local Brit. post office say 45% of parcels sent to south Africa are reported as not delivered & claims made against the senders or Insaurance.


Sad thing is when Ive pointed out fakes to the ebay sellers, the few honest ones, who are big enough to accept the evidence I offer & who change their discription to say theve been told it fake dont even get a buyer usualy. Lies usualy pay 3x to 4x the truth on ebay sadley. {for kukris anyway.}

Spiral

[Ian]

Ariel, as usual, has tapped the essence of eBay interactions and major weaknesses of the process.

The safest action for those of us who know something is a fake is to do nothing. The eBay market place does not tolerate interference from well intentioned informants trying to rescue a bidder from a mistake. The eBay management is in the business of having sellers rack up high prices for their items -- more commission for the site. That's not to say eBay management are unwilling to take action against fraud, but it has to be blatant and provable (more than just "in my experienced opinion"). When a number of Chinese eBayers were fraudulently advertising other sellers' items (stealing photos and descriptions), eBay management did step in. However, I'm not aware of other actions against sellers who make dodgy claims.

Nothing replaces knowledge and having a healthy skepticisim for anything that seems too good to be true. It's a rough and tumble affair on eBay sometimes, but that is the arena we enter voluntarily and no point in complaining about it. It is what it is -- for better or worse.

And yes, we all do make mistakes. I have my "drawer of shame" to remind me of times when I was gullible, arrogant, or just plain stupid!

Ian.

Originally Posted by ariel

Lew,
You are, of course, correct.
However, in defence of both the seller and, especially, the E-Bay: how do they know that you know what you are talking about? Why should the seller disregard the opinion of a professional antique dealer who has (or claims to have) the provenance of the item simply because somebody is asserting that the ID is wrong?
With E-Bay it is even stickier: by allowing outside interference one would open the door to dishonest competition. One can send an e-mail to a potential buyer asserting that an item in question is a fake, overpriced, stolen etc and offer instead something from his stock (fake,overpriced, stolen etc).
Entering free market entails risks.
Knowledge helps.
Buyer beware.
Fools part with their money all the time.
All of us certainly did, sometime or another. I have no pity for them or for our own misfortunes: this is the price of learning if one wants to make it so.
And if the naif still wants to believe that this dagger one belonged to a famous Apache chief, let him hang it on the wall next to a tomahawk stamped " Made in Taiwan". It makes no difference to him: he wants to believe and he does. He bought himself pride and happiness for $300. Cheap for the price.

[Rick]

As the rolling head once said:

" Look out Joe! "

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by Ian

.....I'm not aware of other actions against sellers who make dodgy claims...

You're correct, Ian. The E-Bay's business strategy is based solely on trust between seller and buyer. They do not, and will not serve as experts, apraisers, etc. when it comes to judging an advertised item, so you have to look up indeed, Joe:-)

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Rick

As the rolling head once said:

" Look out Joe! "

The quote of the day!!!

[John43]

Ty for the action i hope this wil not be daily bussines selling this cr***

john