SOLO KRATON KERIS AUCTIONED / GIFT FROM JAVANESE ROYALS TO DUTCH BANKER

asomotif · 6th August 2016, 09:59 PM

Good evening,

This keris was auctioned last month.
It was offered as a mid 19th century kraton keris that was a gift from a javanese royal family to a dutch banker.
His name is engraved in the selut and the weapon of the royal family is on the back of the pendok.

How realistic is this ?

Best regards,
Willem

mariusgmioc · 6th August 2016, 11:19 PM

It looks like there is a mismatch between the kris and the scabbard...

I don't think it is new... but 19th century?! I doubt.

Battara · 7th August 2016, 02:43 AM

I maybe wrong, but it doesn't look royal to me.

Jean · 7th August 2016, 08:51 AM

May be the Dutch banker was an usurer or a crook?

The name seems to be written on the mendak and the selut is recent and of poor quality.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 7th August 2016, 12:39 PM

Good story.

In respect of "Royal" keris.

During the 1980's I saw and handled a number of keris that were indisputably "Royal" keris. They were held in the store rooms of the Surakarta Kraton and were keris that had been gifted to kraton officials, and to previous Susuhunans, and keris that had been made on order from the Kraton. In most cases these were very ordinary keris.

A Javanese "Royal" keris does not need to be super great to be legitimate.

This keris shown may well have spent time in a Kraton storeroom.

However, the dress is very, very pedestrian quality and the keris itself is poorly matched to the dress.

Again, this poor presentation is not at all unusual for something coming from the Surakarta Kraton. There are more than a few examples of very, very ordinary keris floating around, some of which are very famous ( and have been for a long time), are in museums, or during the 20th century were given to visiting heads of state and politicians.

I was once offered a keris that had been presented to a former Australian Prime Minister, not by a kraton, but by (I guess) a representative of the Indonesian Government. It was one notch above rubbish. Probably a good indication of how much respect that particular Aussie PM got from Jakarta.

Just because a keris has been presented to somebody, by somebody, it does not mean that its value is any more than the sum value of its individual parts.

Jean · 7th August 2016, 01:24 PM

Hello Alan,
Thank you for the interesting story & analysis, I agree that the blade is quite good but do you think that the ganja wulung is original or not? (difficult to assess from a picture of course).
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 7th August 2016, 02:29 PM

I don't like guessing Jean, but really, whether it is, or is not the very first gonjo fitted to the blade is not relevant in my opinion.

A keris can, and does, sometimes lose its gonjo often for culturally related reasons.

It is important that the gonjo be replaced competently.

It is unimportant that is has been replaced.

Think about it like this:- the blade is male : the gonjo is female, just as the wrongko is female : the male wilah is mated to the female elements of the complete keris and when all are together we have a societal symbol of the unity of male and female, just as a married man & woman are together representative of the required unity that makes a whole: man cannot be complete without woman, woman cannot be complete without man. Now, in the human man/woman unity if one part dies, it should be replaced so that the remaining part can once again be complete. In traditional thought, a woman should not continue to exist as a part of a community after the death of her husband, but if she removes herself from the community, or in later times takes a new husband, the unity is restored and the community is once again in balance. If the community is in balance, the danger to the cosmos of a state of non-balance is avoided.

The whole thing is really very simple. It is just a matter of understanding what the keris really is.

Frankly, I don't think this is much of a blade from the artistic perspective, its just a keris, nothing special, not bad, not good. But it is a keris, and if thought about in a cultural/societal context the important thing is that it does have a gonjo and that gonjo is suited to the wilah.

Rick · 7th August 2016, 10:50 PM

Willem,
Was there anything tangible to link this keris to a particular person?
An old photograph?
Perhaps a letter mentioning the occasion?

asomotif · 7th August 2016, 11:14 PM

Hello Rick,

The seller claims that the keris comes from the granddaughter of this banker.
Here is the link to the Original listing :

http://veiling.catawiki.nl/kavels/68...-java-indonesi

We are not discussing prices here, but If you check the link, you will see that Alan's rule does not apply here :

Quote:

Just because a keris has been presented to somebody, by somebody, it does not mean that its value is any more than the sum value of its individual parts.

My questions regarding this keris are the following.
- the red fabric in the center of the pendok is described as a proof of high status. Is this true ?
- The pendokok/mendak has a name in it, but the technique used does not look like an indonesian way of working to me.
- The selut seems very recent to me.
- The "royal" family crest on the back of the keris. Is this a know decoration ?

Best regards,
Willem

Battara · 8th August 2016, 12:09 AM

Alan, thank you. Again, I have learned.

A. G. Maisey · 8th August 2016, 12:12 AM

Willem, any rule is only as good as the place where it applies.

Traffic in Australia travels on the left hand side of the road. That's the rule here.

Traffic in many other countries travels on the right hand side of the road. That's the rule in those other places.

Get a bit mixed up and you might die.

My approach to the keris, most especially the Javanese and Balinese keris is a cultural/societal approach. The way I think about and evaluate a keris is based in values and mores that apply to the keris in Jawa, and that were taught to me by Javanese people, amongst them two Karaton Surakarta empus. Before I learnt how to think about the keris in a way that is in harmony with these values and mores my way of looking at the keris was perhaps a little more aligned to the way in which most collectors think, particularly collectors who are outside these keris bearing societies. Although I can understand how others may think about the keris, and although I myself may have thought in a similar way in the past, I have left that way of thinking behind me a very long time ago.

Regarding the colour red. Within the Surakarta Karaton a red kemalo pendok is reserved for wear by members of the royal family or a bupati. This does not necessarily apply outside the kraton and use is situational. A red cloth insert is not a red kemalo pendok, but arguably it may be read in the same way.

This selut style does exist in early seluts, but the one pictured here probably dates from at the very earliest, the 1970's.

The mendak could have been marked with the name in Jawa, it is very simple embossing work, and the Javanese craftsmen are some of the best in the world at this craft. But the question is why it was so marked. Personally I have not the slightest idea why.

The "Royal Family Crest" ?
Sorry, I cannot see any such thing.
What I can see is a little wreath with a couple of Javanese letters in it. This might be a maker's mark, something a previous owner has had put there, a pattern number --- it could be anything. This sort of marking on the back of a pendok is very common.

Stories and sales hype.

mariusgmioc · 8th August 2016, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The "Royal Family Crest" ?
Sorry, I cannot see any such thing.
What I can see is a little wreath with a couple of Javanese letters in it. This might be a maker's mark, something a previous owner has had put there, a pattern number --- it could be anything. This sort of marking on the back of a pendok is very common.

Stories and sales hype.

That was my impression too. That isn't the Surakarta Kraton crest.

However, I have seen many kerises bearing the Kraton crest on sale for around 50 Euros in the Surakarta antique market. Didn't buy any because I thought they were overpriced... so you can get an idea about their quality.

A. G. Maisey · 8th August 2016, 12:39 PM

To be able to buy quality , on the ground, in Solo, you need connections.

Connections take time to build.

No connections, you don't even get to see quality, let alone buy it.

mariusgmioc · 8th August 2016, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

To be able to buy quality , on the ground, in Solo, you need connections.

Connections take time to build.

No connections, you don't even get to see quality, let alone buy it.

Hello Alan,

Yes, you are right, as I checked it out myself! I even saw a couple of dealers but they only had average and sub-average stuff.

So I ended up buying a Keris from a dealer here in the Netherlands.

asomotif · 9th August 2016, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

This selut style does exist in early seluts, but the one pictured here probably dates from at the very earliest, the 1970's.

The mendak could have been marked with the name in Jawa, it is very simple embossing work, and the Javanese craftsmen are some of the best in the world at this craft. But the question is why it was so marked. Personally I have not the slightest idea why.

.

Here are 2 more pictures of the selut/mendak combi.

The selut looks recent to me as well.
And the mendak also looks like construction of not matching parts.
Original sorsorran and meniran . but the part with the inscription looks very western european in my opinion.

I would not be surprised if this was part of an office stamp used at the bank.

asomotif · 9th August 2016, 07:44 PM

Ps. the keris is of excellent forging. Proof is offered by this picture.
well forged keris appear to have a good balance and can stand alone.

any opinions on this balance story ?

mariusgmioc · 9th August 2016, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Ps. the keris is of excellent forging. Proof is offered by this picture.
well forged keris appear to have a good balance and can stand alone.

any opinions on this balance story ?

Theoretically you should be able to do this with every single keris. Didn't try it myself but it's basic physics completely independent from the quality of the Keris. You may check it out by rotating the handle so to be out of balance. You should be able to make it stand even with the handle rotated... albeit it will stand at a slight inclination angle.

PS: Now I tried it myself and couldn't make it stand whatsoever. And the seller showed me that it stands... Maybe one needs a steady hand.

I attached the Surakarta sultan crest

David · 9th August 2016, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Ps. the keris is of excellent forging. Proof is offered by this picture.
well forged keris appear to have a good balance and can stand alone.

any opinions on this balance story ?

Sorry Willem, i can balance most keris regardless of the quality of the forging.

David · 9th August 2016, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Here are 2 more pictures of the selut/mendak combi.

The selut looks recent to me as well.
And the mendak also looks like construction of not matching parts.
Original sorsorran and meniran . but the part with the inscription looks very western european in my opinion.

I would not be surprised if this was part of an office stamp used at the bank.

Willem, i can only read parts of what is written around the mendak. Could you write it out for us. I see what looks like "Rotterdam" and then maybe "Weezenber" (???) but i can see there are more letters involved.

asomotif · 9th August 2016, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Willem, i can only read parts of what is written around the mendak. Could you write it out for us. I see what looks like "Rotterdam" and then maybe "Weezenber" (???) but i can see there are more letters involved.

Hello David,

* VAN WEEZENBEEK * ROTTERDAM

Roland_M · 10th August 2016, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

any opinions on this balance story ?

Yes, try it on a hard wooden surface.
With the carpet it is more wedged within the carpet with the scabbard as a kind of bearing.

Some keris are able to stand on wood or stone almost without the help of the scabbard. I really don't know, whether this is a sign of quality or not but I have one Keris, which stands on its tip almost by itself after few seconds.

Roland

A. G. Maisey · 10th August 2016, 10:58 AM

Its MAGIK!!!

And obviously very, very important.

asomotif · 10th August 2016, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

Yes, try it on a hard wooden surface.
With the carpet it is more wedged within the carpet with the scabbard as a kind of bearing.

Some keris are able to stand on wood or stone almost without the help of the scabbard. I really don't know, whether this is a sign of quality or not but I have one Keris, which stands on its tip almost by itself after few seconds.

Roland

Maybe I will give it a try with a few of my keris.

I have only tried this in the past with a broom stick and with a broom stick it worked. based on that experience I fail to see the relation to good forging / quality.

Roland_M · 10th August 2016, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

based on that experience I fail to see the relation to good forging / quality.

Just a theory!!
A Keris, which stands easily on its tip is well balanced and this increases the value in a serious situation, provides a better feeling for the blade.

For Indonesians it is often very important, that the Keris stands on its tip easily and I think we all know not enough to laugh about it and put it in the empire of Esoteric.

Roland

A. G. Maisey · 10th August 2016, 01:00 PM

Comment withdrawn.

Why bother?

Years of talking about keris in this Forum and is there anybody who understands what we're talking about?

mariusgmioc · 10th August 2016, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Its MAGIK!!!

And obviously very, very important.

Brilliant! Thank you!

Rick · 11th August 2016, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Its MAGIK!!!

And obviously very, very important.

Earth Magick Alan.

Regular balancing of your kerises is important to ones chi you know...

David · 11th August 2016, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Comment withdrawn.

Why bother?

Years of talking about keris in this Forum and is there anybody who understands what we're talking about?

I have no comment here. Just wanted to re-post Alan's last comment.

asomotif · 11th August 2016, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Good evening,

This keris was auctioned last month.
It was offered as a mid 19th century kraton keris that was a gift from a javanese royal family to a dutch banker.
His name is engraved in the selut and the weapon of the royal family is on the back of the pendok.

How realistic is this ?

Best regards,
Willem

Sorry, maybe I brought up something that is not about keris but more about the hocus pocus around a keris.

A. G. Maisey · 11th August 2016, 11:11 PM

When almost anything is misunderstood, people seem to conjure explanations from their own misunderstanding.

A good example of this, and one that is very easy to understand is the manifestation of the Melanesian Cargo Cult that occurred after WWII. There is a lot of information on Cargo Cults on the net and in the literature. Here is a link to a clear, concise summary:-

http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/cargocult.htm

The keris, most especially the Javanese keris is a multi facetted object. This is perfectly in harmony with the nature of the culture which gave it birth, the culture of Jawa, that has a system of values and symbolism that in themselves are multi-facetted.

Because of this there are many aspects of the keris that are not understood, and many more aspects that were understood by some people at some time, but have now been forgotten.

We, as people who have an interest in the keris have choices to make:-

we can simply accumulate collections of the physical object and immerse ourselves in trying to understand the physical manifestation of skill and artistry that has gone into the production of that object.

or

we can make an attempt to try to understand the forces that prompted a culture to create this object, the Keris, and then to develop it into a socio-cultural icon that has lasted for better than 1000 years.

I am not suggesting that one of these choices is more worthy than the other:- each of us will instinctively follow the path that is most appealing to himself.

However, for those who may wish to stray beyond the bounds of the purely physical, here would be a good place to start:-

Sumukti Sumastuti , "Gunungan, The Javanese Cosmic Mountain", A dissertation submitted to the
Graduate Division of the University of Hawaii in partial fulfilment of the requirements for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy in Anthropology, December 1997.

This used to be available on-line, I have been unable to locate a current address. I do have a pdf of it, which I am willing to share.

6th August 2016, 09:59 PM	#1
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,224	SOLO KRATON KERIS AUCTIONED / GIFT FROM JAVANESE ROYALS TO DUTCH BANKER Good evening, This keris was auctioned last month. It was offered as a mid 19th century kraton keris that was a gift from a javanese royal family to a dutch banker. His name is engraved in the selut and the weapon of the royal family is on the back of the pendok. How realistic is this ? Best regards, Willem Attached Images

6th August 2016, 11:19 PM	#2
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	It looks like there is a mismatch between the kris and the scabbard... I don't think it is new... but 19th century?! I doubt. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 6th August 2016 at 11:39 PM.

7th August 2016, 08:51 AM	#4
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	May be the Dutch banker was an usurer or a crook? The name seems to be written on the mendak and the selut is recent and of poor quality. Regards Last edited by Jean; 7th August 2016 at 09:22 AM.

9th August 2016, 07:44 PM	#16
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,224	Ps. the keris is of excellent forging. Proof is offered by this picture. well forged keris appear to have a good balance and can stand alone. any opinions on this balance story ? Attached Images

7th August 2016, 02:43 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,217	I maybe wrong, but it doesn't look royal to me.

7th August 2016, 12:39 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,879	Good story. In respect of "Royal" keris. During the 1980's I saw and handled a number of keris that were indisputably "Royal" keris. They were held in the store rooms of the Surakarta Kraton and were keris that had been gifted to kraton officials, and to previous Susuhunans, and keris that had been made on order from the Kraton. In most cases these were very ordinary keris. A Javanese "Royal" keris does not need to be super great to be legitimate. This keris shown may well have spent time in a Kraton storeroom. However, the dress is very, very pedestrian quality and the keris itself is poorly matched to the dress. Again, this poor presentation is not at all unusual for something coming from the Surakarta Kraton. There are more than a few examples of very, very ordinary keris floating around, some of which are very famous ( and have been for a long time), are in museums, or during the 20th century were given to visiting heads of state and politicians. I was once offered a keris that had been presented to a former Australian Prime Minister, not by a kraton, but by (I guess) a representative of the Indonesian Government. It was one notch above rubbish. Probably a good indication of how much respect that particular Aussie PM got from Jakarta. Just because a keris has been presented to somebody, by somebody, it does not mean that its value is any more than the sum value of its individual parts.

7th August 2016, 01:24 PM	#6
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Alan, Thank you for the interesting story & analysis, I agree that the blade is quite good but do you think that the ganja wulung is original or not? (difficult to assess from a picture of course). Regards

7th August 2016, 02:29 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,879	I don't like guessing Jean, but really, whether it is, or is not the very first gonjo fitted to the blade is not relevant in my opinion. A keris can, and does, sometimes lose its gonjo often for culturally related reasons. It is important that the gonjo be replaced competently. It is unimportant that is has been replaced. Think about it like this:- the blade is male : the gonjo is female, just as the wrongko is female : the male wilah is mated to the female elements of the complete keris and when all are together we have a societal symbol of the unity of male and female, just as a married man & woman are together representative of the required unity that makes a whole: man cannot be complete without woman, woman cannot be complete without man. Now, in the human man/woman unity if one part dies, it should be replaced so that the remaining part can once again be complete. In traditional thought, a woman should not continue to exist as a part of a community after the death of her husband, but if she removes herself from the community, or in later times takes a new husband, the unity is restored and the community is once again in balance. If the community is in balance, the danger to the cosmos of a state of non-balance is avoided. The whole thing is really very simple. It is just a matter of understanding what the keris really is. Frankly, I don't think this is much of a blade from the artistic perspective, its just a keris, nothing special, not bad, not good. But it is a keris, and if thought about in a cultural/societal context the important thing is that it does have a gonjo and that gonjo is suited to the wilah.

7th August 2016, 10:50 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Willem, Was there anything tangible to link this keris to a particular person? An old photograph? Perhaps a letter mentioning the occasion?

8th August 2016, 12:09 AM	#10
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,217	Alan, thank you. Again, I have learned.

8th August 2016, 12:12 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,879	Willem, any rule is only as good as the place where it applies. Traffic in Australia travels on the left hand side of the road. That's the rule here. Traffic in many other countries travels on the right hand side of the road. That's the rule in those other places. Get a bit mixed up and you might die. My approach to the keris, most especially the Javanese and Balinese keris is a cultural/societal approach. The way I think about and evaluate a keris is based in values and mores that apply to the keris in Jawa, and that were taught to me by Javanese people, amongst them two Karaton Surakarta empus. Before I learnt how to think about the keris in a way that is in harmony with these values and mores my way of looking at the keris was perhaps a little more aligned to the way in which most collectors think, particularly collectors who are outside these keris bearing societies. Although I can understand how others may think about the keris, and although I myself may have thought in a similar way in the past, I have left that way of thinking behind me a very long time ago. Regarding the colour red. Within the Surakarta Karaton a red kemalo pendok is reserved for wear by members of the royal family or a bupati. This does not necessarily apply outside the kraton and use is situational. A red cloth insert is not a red kemalo pendok, but arguably it may be read in the same way. This selut style does exist in early seluts, but the one pictured here probably dates from at the very earliest, the 1970's. The mendak could have been marked with the name in Jawa, it is very simple embossing work, and the Javanese craftsmen are some of the best in the world at this craft. But the question is why it was so marked. Personally I have not the slightest idea why. The "Royal Family Crest" ? Sorry, I cannot see any such thing. What I can see is a little wreath with a couple of Javanese letters in it. This might be a maker's mark, something a previous owner has had put there, a pattern number --- it could be anything. This sort of marking on the back of a pendok is very common. Stories and sales hype.

8th August 2016, 12:39 PM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,879	To be able to buy quality , on the ground, in Solo, you need connections. Connections take time to build. No connections, you don't even get to see quality, let alone buy it.

10th August 2016, 10:58 AM	#22
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,879	Its MAGIK!!! And obviously very, very important.

10th August 2016, 01:00 PM	#25
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,879	Comment withdrawn. Why bother? Years of talking about keris in this Forum and is there anybody who understands what we're talking about?

11th August 2016, 11:11 PM	#30
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,879	When almost anything is misunderstood, people seem to conjure explanations from their own misunderstanding. A good example of this, and one that is very easy to understand is the manifestation of the Melanesian Cargo Cult that occurred after WWII. There is a lot of information on Cargo Cults on the net and in the literature. Here is a link to a clear, concise summary:- http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/cargocult.htm The keris, most especially the Javanese keris is a multi facetted object. This is perfectly in harmony with the nature of the culture which gave it birth, the culture of Jawa, that has a system of values and symbolism that in themselves are multi-facetted. Because of this there are many aspects of the keris that are not understood, and many more aspects that were understood by some people at some time, but have now been forgotten. We, as people who have an interest in the keris have choices to make:- we can simply accumulate collections of the physical object and immerse ourselves in trying to understand the physical manifestation of skill and artistry that has gone into the production of that object. or we can make an attempt to try to understand the forces that prompted a culture to create this object, the Keris, and then to develop it into a socio-cultural icon that has lasted for better than 1000 years. I am not suggesting that one of these choices is more worthy than the other:- each of us will instinctively follow the path that is most appealing to himself. However, for those who may wish to stray beyond the bounds of the purely physical, here would be a good place to start:- Sumukti Sumastuti , "Gunungan, The Javanese Cosmic Mountain", A dissertation submitted to the Graduate Division of the University of Hawaii in partial fulfilment of the requirements for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy in Anthropology, December 1997. This used to be available on-line, I have been unable to locate a current address. I do have a pdf of it, which I am willing to share.