mongol swords/mamluke/crusader swords

chevalier · 21st July 2008, 07:06 AM

instead of makeing 3 seperate threads, i thought id combine them.

does anyone have any examples of mongol swords?

id expect swords from the time of genghis khan/batu/hulegu would be extremely rare, but then i havent seen any mongol swords from later periods either. the same is true perhaps of mameluke and crusader swords??

i remember seeing a book with photos of several 13th century mamluke swords from egypt and they where all straight bladed broadswords that very much resembled european swords of the same period, i have yet to see these swords anywhere else, much less for sale to private collectors.

ive seen a very few crusader swords, mostly of norman type, and all where so badly pitted and corroded that they look liked they could barely be handled without falling apart.

josh stout · 21st July 2008, 06:11 PM

Here is a thread on a high quality Mongol saber (http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...ghlight=mongol).

In general Mongol swords resembled those of the people they conquered. So the eastern empire had swords with Chinese and Tibetan influences such as the one above, and the Ilkhnids had swords resembling the shamshir.

The only 13th c. blade I have seen was from Persia and looked like the one in the link provided, so that may be the older design, with the raised yelman.

Often it is stated that the straight Chinese sabers gave way to curved ones with the influence of "step" peoples that would include the Mongols.

So it seems that curved sabers may have spread from China to Poland with the spread of the Mongols, but with local designs influencing what was actually used by the Mongols in a particular region.

Josh

TVV · 21st July 2008, 06:22 PM

There is a Polish book in Polish and English, by Gutowski (I might be misspelling the name) on Tatar Arms. It is a more of a catalogue and features most known Tatar sabres in museums and private collections. The emphasis is on the Golden Horde and its remnants in Lithuania, Poland and Russia, and most of the examples are later - 16th to 18th centuries, but there are some early examples as well.
For further study perhaps you should look for Gorelik's and Khudyakov's works, as I think they included Mongol arms and armour.
Regards,
Teodor

Jim McDougall · 21st July 2008, 10:12 PM

Well answered by Teodor, and Josh.

..and your response Chevalier?

ariel · 22nd July 2008, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

There is a Polish book in Polish and English, by Gutowski (I might be misspelling the name) on Tatar Arms. It is a more of a catalogue and features most known Tatar sabres in museums and private collections. The emphasis is on the Golden Horde and its remnants in Lithuania, Poland and Russia, and most of the examples are later - 16th to 18th centuries, but there are some early examples as well.
For further study perhaps you should look for Gorelik's and Khudyakov's works, as I think they included Mongol arms and armour.
Regards,
Teodor

Gorelik is the best academic source, but he does not show actual photos: only his drawings.
Gutowski is great , with very good historical introduction on the history of Tatars in Poland, but the actual examples are quite late as Teodor mentioned.
I would add David Nicolle " Arms and armor of the crusading era. 1050-1350. Islam, Eastern Europe and Asia" ISBN 1-85367-369-2
I would look also at Artzi's site: he has 2 nomad swords for sale, 9-11 centuries.
http://www.oriental-arms.com/items.php?coll=2&cat=1

Jim McDougall · 24th July 2008, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Gorelik is the best academic source, but he does not show actual photos: only his drawings.
Gutowski is great , with very good historical introduction on the history of Tatars in Poland, but the actual examples are quite late as Teodor mentioned.
I would add David Nicolle " Arms and armor of the crusading era. 1050-1350. Islam, Eastern Europe and Asia" ISBN 1-85367-369-2
I would look also at Artzi's site: he has 2 nomad swords for sale, 9-11 centuries.
http://www.oriental-arms.com/items.php?coll=2&cat=1

This is great information for our ambitious young friend! Hopefully he will let us know if he finds anything useful. Its always good to see inquisitive young minds leaning toward the study of weapons history.

21st July 2008, 07:06 AM	#1
chevalier Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 119	mongol swords/mamluke/crusader swords instead of makeing 3 seperate threads, i thought id combine them. does anyone have any examples of mongol swords? id expect swords from the time of genghis khan/batu/hulegu would be extremely rare, but then i havent seen any mongol swords from later periods either. the same is true perhaps of mameluke and crusader swords?? i remember seeing a book with photos of several 13th century mamluke swords from egypt and they where all straight bladed broadswords that very much resembled european swords of the same period, i have yet to see these swords anywhere else, much less for sale to private collectors. ive seen a very few crusader swords, mostly of norman type, and all where so badly pitted and corroded that they look liked they could barely be handled without falling apart.

21st July 2008, 06:11 PM	#2
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	Here is a thread on a high quality Mongol saber (http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...ghlight=mongol). In general Mongol swords resembled those of the people they conquered. So the eastern empire had swords with Chinese and Tibetan influences such as the one above, and the Ilkhnids had swords resembling the shamshir. The only 13th c. blade I have seen was from Persia and looked like the one in the link provided, so that may be the older design, with the raised yelman. Often it is stated that the straight Chinese sabers gave way to curved ones with the influence of "step" peoples that would include the Mongols. So it seems that curved sabers may have spread from China to Poland with the spread of the Mongols, but with local designs influencing what was actually used by the Mongols in a particular region. Josh

21st July 2008, 06:22 PM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,621	There is a Polish book in Polish and English, by Gutowski (I might be misspelling the name) on Tatar Arms. It is a more of a catalogue and features most known Tatar sabres in museums and private collections. The emphasis is on the Golden Horde and its remnants in Lithuania, Poland and Russia, and most of the examples are later - 16th to 18th centuries, but there are some early examples as well. For further study perhaps you should look for Gorelik's and Khudyakov's works, as I think they included Mongol arms and armour. Regards, Teodor

21st July 2008, 10:12 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Well answered by Teodor, and Josh. ..and your response Chevalier?