JAPANESE SLEEVE ENTANGLERS

VANDOO · 12th January 2008, 02:20 AM

I RAN ACROSS AN AUCTION OF TWO JAPANESE POLE ARMS THEY WERE CARRIED TO ENTANGLE THE LONG SLEEVES OF UNRULY SAMURAI. IT IS SAID THAT THE OFFICERS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS WERE NOT OF SAMURAI CLASS SO WERE NOT ALLOWED TO TOUCH OR KILL A SAMURAI. SO THIS METHOD WAS INVENTED TO CATCH A SAMURAI AND TAKE HIM BEFORE A OFFICIAL OF HIGH ENOUGH RANK TO DEAL WITH HIM. THAT IS ALL I KNOW ABOUT IT AND IT MAY NOT BE ENTIRELY CORRECT SO PERHAPS A MORE KNOWLEGABLE MEMBER CAN CORECT ME OR AD TO THE INFORMATION. I HAVE 3 MORE PICTURES OF THE ITEMS BUT UNFORTUNATELY THEY ARE TOO LARGE TO POST HERE AND i STILL HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO RESIZE ANYTHING.

Gavin Nugent · 12th January 2008, 03:18 AM

Asolutley gorgeous Vandoo, a rare find, did you win these? I do think they would look fabulous in my office!!!

Gav

Montino Bourbon · 12th January 2008, 09:00 AM

Made by this type of weapon would identify a person who escaped from their grip as a runaway criminal.

The Japanese version of "You can run, but you can't hide!"

t_c · 12th January 2008, 08:59 PM

According to Stone it's a Sode Garami (Sleeve tangler), used to catch thieves. Wish I could be more helpful. Nice pieces. If you want to PM me I'll resize the other images for you.
tc

fearn · 13th January 2008, 02:04 AM

There's a section on these weapons in Donn Draeger's book on classical bujutsu, which unfortunately I don't have with me at the moment. There were actually three weapons, the third being a catchpole similar to that used in Europe, and they were used by squads of three constables. After the shogunate was instituted, they became symbols of justice, and were displayed by magistrates at trials and punishments..

According to what I remember from Draeger, the reason that these poles were used was not because the constables couldn't touch the samurai, but rather because, during the Warring States Period (which is when these were used), the samurai were so dangerous that, to catch one alive (say, after a drunken brawl), a squad of three people with these implements was necessary. It's similar to medieval Europe, where the town constables used catchpoles of similar design for much the same reason.

Draeger wasn't fond of Tokugawa-era martial arts. He thought that they had deteriorated from the standard of the Warring States Period. One of his bits of evidence was that, during the Warring States period, the constables needed sleeve entanglers and worked in squads to catch samurai, whereas during the Tokugawa regime, they used staves, chains, and jitte (similar to sai) to catch samurai, and often worked alone. Something to think about.

My 0.02 cents,

F

Rick · 13th January 2008, 05:51 PM

Barry , I tried to resize those pics but they are not jpg files .

Maybe someone else can do better .

David · 13th January 2008, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Barry , I tried to resize those pics but they are not jpg files .

Maybe someone else can do better .

Send them to me, i'll see what i can do.

Rick · 13th January 2008, 06:22 PM

On the way David .

Check your email .

David · 13th January 2008, 10:05 PM

Sorry Rick, the photos that i saw on the site were so small that enlarging them to show detail would only pixelate the image beyond recognition.

Gavin Nugent · 15th January 2008, 08:59 AM

Here's the images you have been wanting to add.

Gav

David · 15th January 2008, 06:40 PM

Nice work Gavin!

VANDOO · 15th January 2008, 07:07 PM

YIPPIE!! (HAPPY DANCE)

THANKS TO ALL 3 OF YOU GUYS, FOR THOSE WHO TRIED AND FOR OUR HERO WHO FINALLY SUCCEDED.

IT IS JUST AS MUCH WORK AND USUALLY MORE TO TRY TO DO SOMETHING AND FAIL, AND YOU DON'T GET THE SATISFACTION OF SUCCESS. BUT SOMETIMES YOU LEARN SOMETHING AND MAKEING THE EFFORT IS A GOOD THING WIN OR LOSE. WHEN IT COMES TO COMPUTERS IT WOULD SEEM I SPEND A LOT OF TIME AND EFFORT BUT JUST END UP CHASEING MY TAIL LIKE A DOG AND NEVER GETTING ANYWHERE.

HELP MAY BE ON THE WAY AS I HAVE 2 GRANDKIDS AND SOON THEY WILL BE BIG ENOUGH TO HELP GRANDPAW WITH THE COMPUTER.

IN MY POST "MIYAMOTO MUSASHI BOOK" THERE ARE 3 PICTURES IN THE BOOK WITH THESE SLEEVE ENTANGLERS THE T SHAPED ONE IS THERE AND TWO OTHERS DIFFERENT FROM THE ONES IN THIS POST AND THE OTHER ONE PICTURED HERE IS NOT IN THE BOOK. SO JUDGING FROM THAT THERE MAY HAVE BEEN AT LEAST 4 VARIATIONS. THEY ALSO LOOK LIKE THEY WOULD BE VERY USEFUL IN PULLING A WARRIOR FROM A HORSE SO MAY HAVE SEEN USE IN OTHER WAYS AND NOT JUST BY CONSTABLES. THE FIRST PICTURE IN THE BOOK IS OF A SAMURAI WITH A LARGE WOODEN BEAM KNOCKING ABOUT A BUNCH OF GUYS WITH THE SLEEVE CATCHERS. THE PICTURES IN THIS BOOK ARE WORTH THE PRICE.

fearn · 18th January 2008, 12:06 AM

As I noted above, three different ones was the standard grouping. That doesn't mean that there weren't variations on the type, but they properly come in groups of three, one of each design, and this continued long after they ceased to be functional and became largely ceremonial in function.

F

12th January 2008, 02:20 AM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	JAPANESE SLEEVE ENTANGLERS I RAN ACROSS AN AUCTION OF TWO JAPANESE POLE ARMS THEY WERE CARRIED TO ENTANGLE THE LONG SLEEVES OF UNRULY SAMURAI. IT IS SAID THAT THE OFFICERS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS WERE NOT OF SAMURAI CLASS SO WERE NOT ALLOWED TO TOUCH OR KILL A SAMURAI. SO THIS METHOD WAS INVENTED TO CATCH A SAMURAI AND TAKE HIM BEFORE A OFFICIAL OF HIGH ENOUGH RANK TO DEAL WITH HIM. THAT IS ALL I KNOW ABOUT IT AND IT MAY NOT BE ENTIRELY CORRECT SO PERHAPS A MORE KNOWLEGABLE MEMBER CAN CORECT ME OR AD TO THE INFORMATION. I HAVE 3 MORE PICTURES OF THE ITEMS BUT UNFORTUNATELY THEY ARE TOO LARGE TO POST HERE AND i STILL HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO RESIZE ANYTHING. Attached Images

12th January 2008, 03:18 AM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	gorgeous pieces Vandoo Asolutley gorgeous Vandoo, a rare find, did you win these? I do think they would look fabulous in my office!!! Gav

12th January 2008, 09:00 AM	#3
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	The parallel scratches... Made by this type of weapon would identify a person who escaped from their grip as a runaway criminal. The Japanese version of "You can run, but you can't hide!"

13th January 2008, 05:51 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Sorry Barry , I tried to resize those pics but they are not jpg files . Maybe someone else can do better .

15th January 2008, 08:59 AM	#10
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Trade secret...not, here's the pics. Here's the images you have been wanting to add. Gav Attached Images

12th January 2008, 08:59 PM	#4
t_c Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: ca, usa Posts: 92	According to Stone it's a Sode Garami (Sleeve tangler), used to catch thieves. Wish I could be more helpful. Nice pieces. If you want to PM me I'll resize the other images for you. tc

13th January 2008, 02:04 AM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	There's a section on these weapons in Donn Draeger's book on classical bujutsu, which unfortunately I don't have with me at the moment. There were actually three weapons, the third being a catchpole similar to that used in Europe, and they were used by squads of three constables. After the shogunate was instituted, they became symbols of justice, and were displayed by magistrates at trials and punishments.. According to what I remember from Draeger, the reason that these poles were used was not because the constables couldn't touch the samurai, but rather because, during the Warring States Period (which is when these were used), the samurai were so dangerous that, to catch one alive (say, after a drunken brawl), a squad of three people with these implements was necessary. It's similar to medieval Europe, where the town constables used catchpoles of similar design for much the same reason. Draeger wasn't fond of Tokugawa-era martial arts. He thought that they had deteriorated from the standard of the Warring States Period. One of his bits of evidence was that, during the Warring States period, the constables needed sleeve entanglers and worked in squads to catch samurai, whereas during the Tokugawa regime, they used staves, chains, and jitte (similar to sai) to catch samurai, and often worked alone. Something to think about. My 0.02 cents, F

13th January 2008, 06:22 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	On the way David . Check your email .

13th January 2008, 10:05 PM	#9
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	Sorry Rick, the photos that i saw on the site were so small that enlarging them to show detail would only pixelate the image beyond recognition.

15th January 2008, 06:40 PM	#11
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	Nice work Gavin!

15th January 2008, 07:07 PM	#12
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	YIPPIE!! (HAPPY DANCE) THANKS TO ALL 3 OF YOU GUYS, FOR THOSE WHO TRIED AND FOR OUR HERO WHO FINALLY SUCCEDED. IT IS JUST AS MUCH WORK AND USUALLY MORE TO TRY TO DO SOMETHING AND FAIL, AND YOU DON'T GET THE SATISFACTION OF SUCCESS. BUT SOMETIMES YOU LEARN SOMETHING AND MAKEING THE EFFORT IS A GOOD THING WIN OR LOSE. WHEN IT COMES TO COMPUTERS IT WOULD SEEM I SPEND A LOT OF TIME AND EFFORT BUT JUST END UP CHASEING MY TAIL LIKE A DOG AND NEVER GETTING ANYWHERE. HELP MAY BE ON THE WAY AS I HAVE 2 GRANDKIDS AND SOON THEY WILL BE BIG ENOUGH TO HELP GRANDPAW WITH THE COMPUTER. IN MY POST "MIYAMOTO MUSASHI BOOK" THERE ARE 3 PICTURES IN THE BOOK WITH THESE SLEEVE ENTANGLERS THE T SHAPED ONE IS THERE AND TWO OTHERS DIFFERENT FROM THE ONES IN THIS POST AND THE OTHER ONE PICTURED HERE IS NOT IN THE BOOK. SO JUDGING FROM THAT THERE MAY HAVE BEEN AT LEAST 4 VARIATIONS. THEY ALSO LOOK LIKE THEY WOULD BE VERY USEFUL IN PULLING A WARRIOR FROM A HORSE SO MAY HAVE SEEN USE IN OTHER WAYS AND NOT JUST BY CONSTABLES. THE FIRST PICTURE IN THE BOOK IS OF A SAMURAI WITH A LARGE WOODEN BEAM KNOCKING ABOUT A BUNCH OF GUYS WITH THE SLEEVE CATCHERS. THE PICTURES IN THIS BOOK ARE WORTH THE PRICE.

18th January 2008, 12:06 AM	#13
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	As I noted above, three different ones was the standard grouping. That doesn't mean that there weren't variations on the type, but they properly come in groups of three, one of each design, and this continued long after they ceased to be functional and became largely ceremonial in function. F