Moro Kampilan. Opinion needed

philkid · 24th March 2005, 06:33 AM

Hi, I have here a Moro kampilan. Can you give me your opinion about this particular Item. Thanks.

tom hyle · 24th March 2005, 07:07 AM

Just kidding, but you can send it to me if you want, ha ha. The silverwork on the handle is unusual and interesting; it is silver? The black rust/tarnish on it makes me think that.....most metals that look like silver but aren't don't rust black, like silver does. How interesting that it has a metal upper ferule, but at the bottom of the hilt the usual self-feruling wooden guard. There was probably once a split-rattan or metal wrapping on the grip. It seems to have lost a "staple" type metal piece from the handguard. Also, the raised disc(s?) on the wide face of the pommel looks to have once had a metal covering tacked on; likely a coin. Nice looking sword.

philkid · 24th March 2005, 07:26 AM

thanks for the info. I too was curious about the metal on the hilt. How can you know it is silver? I'm just new at this. I have been collecting and selling for only a year.

Conogre · 24th March 2005, 08:32 AM

That's a beautiful old sword, congratulations!
Instead of rusting and prodoucing a reddish iron oxide, silver usually just gets very "black" right from the beginning.....on Muslim weaponry, silver was often a sign of wealth,high rank or personal importance, being a "clean" holy metal, where gold was often considered sinful.
Those holes along the bottom of the silver on the pommel would have held tufts of hair, usually from a horse but occasionally of human origin.
The kampilans are one of the weapons found both in the Philippines and in Indonesia, most famous to the general public for its use by the "Sea Dayaks" or pirates.
Mike

tom hyle · 24th March 2005, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conogre

.....on Muslim weaponry, silver was often a sign of wealth,high rank or personal importance, being a "clean" holy metal, where gold was often considered sinful.

Mike

I didn't know that; thanks. In truth I very little care whether metal is silver or how pure; I'm unfascinated by silver, but AFAIK there are some sort of tests that jewellers know; maybe someone can tell you. Black oxide is a pretty decent cue though. Nickel alloys rust (I like to use that word for all metals; I don't know why) grey or green (depending how much copper they contain), and aluminum, while having a slightly different sheen, also rusts dull light grey.

ariel · 24th March 2005, 04:26 PM

The pic of the tip looks as if a motorized implement had been used for cleaning.
Horror, horror.....

Conogre · 24th March 2005, 04:37 PM

Since you're fairly new to collecting, Ariel's comment was also possibly in way of a subtle warning...many beautiful antiques are all but destroyed by using a Dremmel, sander or such to remove rust, which can mar a blade almost beyond repair.
Many use a liberal application and soaking with WD40 or a similar good rust inhibitor, followed by removal with a cloth or other non-abrasive material until you have considerable experience.
Mike

Bill · 24th March 2005, 04:57 PM

Nice old Kampilan, also nice restoration project. The white metal seems quite odd, your pics look like mine so its hard to see detail. While it has "Moro" design on the white metal, it doesn't look typical. It also seems to be cut from thin sheet metal but it is hard to tell. Is it holding the hilt together or covering up damage? Plenty of advise in the old forums on restoration, Good luck with a nice old sword.

philkid · 24th March 2005, 05:43 PM

What do you think the age is on this item? Thanks for the info about restoration although I did not restore it. Left it as it is. The metal doesn't hold the hilt together and I don't see it covering up any damage. What do you think the metal was for? Is it for decoration? Thanks

philkid · 24th March 2005, 05:55 PM

By the way, can someone give me the basics on what to use on cleaning blades? Thanks.

Conogre · 24th March 2005, 06:01 PM

Again, silver was often used as a display of wealth, rank or status on many swords, particularly as it's regarded as a "clean" metal, spiritually, in the Muslim faith.
Many warriors added to their swords as their station in life improved, so it's not unusual to see silver newer than the rest of a sword, and keep in mind that swords were also often passed down from generation to generation as well as being highly regarded battle trophies.
I would suspect that more than one klewang was retired back to field chores when its owner was fortunate enough to come out the victor in a battle or war, aquiring a weapon that would otherwise be far beyond his means.
As to age, at least as early as the late 19th century and possibly as new as the early to mid 20th century, but would hesitate to state anything more than that, other than it's a very nice weapon.
Mike

Ian · 24th March 2005, 06:27 PM

Congrats on finding a nice old example of a kampilan, probably 19th C., that has some features which make me think it is probably Maranao.

The Maranao features are the style of the hilt with a prominent round disk at the junction of the two "jaws," as well as the use of a silver band at the end of the grip decorated with ")" marks which are still seen today on pieces coming from the Lake Lanao region. Similar silver bands can be seen on some Maranao kris.

I do think this is silver from the appearance in the pictures. Pure silver was used on many early Moro weapons, as well as coin silver from melting down Spanish and later American silver coins. Silver (or any other precious metal) decoration is uncommon on kampilan, and perhaps indicates ownership by someone of higher rank, as Mike has indicated. It is unusual to see such ornamentation on kampilan, perhaps because these were exclusively weapons and were not worn for display (although some dignitaries did have large, unusual examples carried by attendants as a symbol of rank or power).

It is likely that the grip on this one was wrapped with rattan strips or cord during its earlier life, and these have been lost with time.

There are many posts about kampilan on this web site, and I would encourage you to use the search function for "kampilan" to learn more about them.

Ian.

Federico · 25th March 2005, 01:25 AM

I agree with Bill, there is something funky going on with the "silver" decor. Very aftermarket, and has the appearance of very modern sheet metal. Just to clarify, modern rolled sheet, not that it is not necessarily silver, but more modern in its production.

One note with Maranao theories on Kampilan, the idea of the hilt as swiflet tail has Maranao origins.

tom hyle · 25th March 2005, 07:23 AM

The ring does bind the handle, of course (not neccessarily as a repair for an existant split, but it helps prevent and contain any that do occur), as does the guard, as did the grip wrap. Precious metal is usually seen on kampilan in the form of nailed on coins on the pommel, or inlays in the blade. The toothbrush looking metal part that covers the "croc jaw" is certainly unusual though. I'm not sure why people are fascinated by the thinness of the metal in a way that seems critical of age or authenticity; many old ferules etc. are quite thin, including Moro ones; I'm not real nuts about the phenomenon,but I actually see it more on old pieces, with the exception of Chinese. The silver does not look ground upon to me, and a soft-buff would've hit the wood [

] which I don't see; I think it was cleaned with a chemical wipe, such as Tarnex, etc. As to kampilan being plain users without decoration; I really don't agree; I'm not saying they're not badass fighting blades, but the hilts are often highly carved, and while the hair tufts may have some religio/magical purpose, they've always mostly seemed like showy decoration to me; not dis-similar to a Lakota's leather fringed garments, or a Zulu soldier's feathers, etc.

tom hyle · 25th March 2005, 07:25 AM

good thing I can only post one message at a time; my fever-trembling chin clicked the submitter about 13 times as I wrestled my cat

.

Federico · 25th March 2005, 07:42 AM

What makes the metal stand out for me is not the thinness, I have seen many extremely thin fittings, but there is something about its uniformity that bugs me. Cant say that it is modern, but it has a precision/uniformity that just strikes me as odd. Anyways, not a big deal, just something that hits me funny. Personally I would read much into it, it doesnt take away from anything, its still a nice kampilan.

Anyways, I agree whole-heartedly Kampilan were not just campaign swords. There are many fine examples, beyond the large carved heads, of extravagent kampilan. From completely silver plated hilts, bone/ivory hilts, banati hilts, etc... The Kampilan is claimed (in a similar fashion to the barong being claimed by Tausug) by some Mindanao groups as a national weapon (Im sorry cant remember which group). Sultan Kudarat is well known for bearing Kampilan as his favored sword. Its inclusion in court regalia (as far as period pics) is more than an occaisional token piece, from pics of sultans to pics of more lower level datus. However, due the natural difficulty in carrying such a large weapon everywhere, they arent something that were necessarily every day carry. Hmm...dunno where Im going with this, but then whats new.

tom hyle · 25th March 2005, 08:48 AM

May I suggest that it's the perfect-seeming flatness of the metal that looks odd; I think that's it; there is something.....it looks industrially-made; real flat, no hammer marks, which wouldn't make sense; I think it was just a real precise metal bending job; maybe the corners were made with a "brake", as in N American sheetmetal work; a type of bending vice/jig, instead of hammering. I don't know if PI traditionally uses such a tool though (I'm sure they do now).

Battara · 25th March 2005, 06:44 PM

I have been lurking in the dark on this one, pondering what it was that was bothering me. I think that Tom and Federico have identified my feeling. Although it could be silver, it is more pure than I usually encounter, and the depressions due to hammer marks are not present. I also must add that usually I encounter more lines and border work at the edges than I see here. I believe this to be a more modern attempt at older work. Not much research went into this restoration. Often the "eyes" would have had some silver on them and thus "re-animating" the spirit of the piece.

Bill · 25th March 2005, 07:03 PM

The white metal shows scratchs but no bumps or dents, so it was never on the sword durning use. The band around the hair plugs doesn't seem to go completely around, at least in the pics, where it is up for auction.

Andrew · 25th March 2005, 11:03 PM

I understand this item it currently listed for sale on eBay. Philkid, did you read the rules thread at the top of the main forum?

Quote:

If you are the seller of an item or have any financial or personal relationship with the seller of an item which, to the most paranoid among us, could constitute a conflict of interest, then any post you initiate about such item belongs in the swap forum. If your only interest or connection is as a potential bidder or buyer of the item, this restriction does not apply, however, you agree to hold all forum members acting in good faith harmless, should you base any purchase decision upon information from such a discussion.

If someone else has initiated discussion on any item for which the preceding paragraph applies in your case, you may reply to and participate in the discussion, but must in each such reply include a statement of your actual or potential commercial interest in the item.

There is no enforceable external legal constraint against posting an object for discussion in a forum such as ours and later deciding to sell the item and posting a link to the discussion in the forums. However, if a forum member does this without having received the permission of the authors of the relevant posts in advance for such commercial use of their remarks, this constitutes grounds for cancellation of the offender's forum registration.

Thread locked. Philkid, please contact me directly via PM or email.

24th March 2005, 06:33 AM	#1
philkid Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Philippines Posts: 52	Moro Kampilan. Opinion needed Hi, I have here a Moro kampilan. Can you give me your opinion about this particular Item. Thanks. Attached Images

24th March 2005, 07:07 AM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	opinion; Moro Kampilan wanted :) Just kidding, but you can send it to me if you want, ha ha. The silverwork on the handle is unusual and interesting; it is silver? The black rust/tarnish on it makes me think that.....most metals that look like silver but aren't don't rust black, like silver does. How interesting that it has a metal upper ferule, but at the bottom of the hilt the usual self-feruling wooden guard. There was probably once a split-rattan or metal wrapping on the grip. It seems to have lost a "staple" type metal piece from the handguard. Also, the raised disc(s?) on the wide face of the pommel looks to have once had a metal covering tacked on; likely a coin. Nice looking sword.

24th March 2005, 07:26 AM	#3
philkid Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Philippines Posts: 52	hahaha. thanks for the info. I too was curious about the metal on the hilt. How can you know it is silver? I'm just new at this. I have been collecting and selling for only a year.

24th March 2005, 06:27 PM	#12
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Nice old kampilan Congrats on finding a nice old example of a kampilan, probably 19th C., that has some features which make me think it is probably Maranao. The Maranao features are the style of the hilt with a prominent round disk at the junction of the two "jaws," as well as the use of a silver band at the end of the grip decorated with ")" marks which are still seen today on pieces coming from the Lake Lanao region. Similar silver bands can be seen on some Maranao kris. I do think this is silver from the appearance in the pictures. Pure silver was used on many early Moro weapons, as well as coin silver from melting down Spanish and later American silver coins. Silver (or any other precious metal) decoration is uncommon on kampilan, and perhaps indicates ownership by someone of higher rank, as Mike has indicated. It is unusual to see such ornamentation on kampilan, perhaps because these were exclusively weapons and were not worn for display (although some dignitaries did have large, unusual examples carried by attendants as a symbol of rank or power). It is likely that the grip on this one was wrapped with rattan strips or cord during its earlier life, and these have been lost with time. There are many posts about kampilan on this web site, and I would encourage you to use the search function for "kampilan" to learn more about them. Ian. Last edited by Ian; 24th March 2005 at 11:01 PM.

24th March 2005, 08:32 AM	#4
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	That's a beautiful old sword, congratulations! Instead of rusting and prodoucing a reddish iron oxide, silver usually just gets very "black" right from the beginning.....on Muslim weaponry, silver was often a sign of wealth,high rank or personal importance, being a "clean" holy metal, where gold was often considered sinful. Those holes along the bottom of the silver on the pommel would have held tufts of hair, usually from a horse but occasionally of human origin. The kampilans are one of the weapons found both in the Philippines and in Indonesia, most famous to the general public for its use by the "Sea Dayaks" or pirates. Mike

24th March 2005, 04:26 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The pic of the tip looks as if a motorized implement had been used for cleaning. Horror, horror.....

24th March 2005, 04:37 PM	#7
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Since you're fairly new to collecting, Ariel's comment was also possibly in way of a subtle warning...many beautiful antiques are all but destroyed by using a Dremmel, sander or such to remove rust, which can mar a blade almost beyond repair. Many use a liberal application and soaking with WD40 or a similar good rust inhibitor, followed by removal with a cloth or other non-abrasive material until you have considerable experience. Mike

24th March 2005, 04:57 PM	#8
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Nice old Kampilan, also nice restoration project. The white metal seems quite odd, your pics look like mine so its hard to see detail. While it has "Moro" design on the white metal, it doesn't look typical. It also seems to be cut from thin sheet metal but it is hard to tell. Is it holding the hilt together or covering up damage? Plenty of advise in the old forums on restoration, Good luck with a nice old sword.

24th March 2005, 05:43 PM	#9
philkid Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Philippines Posts: 52	What do you think the age is on this item? Thanks for the info about restoration although I did not restore it. Left it as it is. The metal doesn't hold the hilt together and I don't see it covering up any damage. What do you think the metal was for? Is it for decoration? Thanks

24th March 2005, 05:55 PM	#10
philkid Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Philippines Posts: 52	By the way, can someone give me the basics on what to use on cleaning blades? Thanks.

24th March 2005, 06:01 PM	#11
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Again, silver was often used as a display of wealth, rank or status on many swords, particularly as it's regarded as a "clean" metal, spiritually, in the Muslim faith. Many warriors added to their swords as their station in life improved, so it's not unusual to see silver newer than the rest of a sword, and keep in mind that swords were also often passed down from generation to generation as well as being highly regarded battle trophies. I would suspect that more than one klewang was retired back to field chores when its owner was fortunate enough to come out the victor in a battle or war, aquiring a weapon that would otherwise be far beyond his means. As to age, at least as early as the late 19th century and possibly as new as the early to mid 20th century, but would hesitate to state anything more than that, other than it's a very nice weapon. Mike

25th March 2005, 01:25 AM	#13
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	I agree with Bill, there is something funky going on with the "silver" decor. Very aftermarket, and has the appearance of very modern sheet metal. Just to clarify, modern rolled sheet, not that it is not necessarily silver, but more modern in its production. One note with Maranao theories on Kampilan, the idea of the hilt as swiflet tail has Maranao origins.

25th March 2005, 07:23 AM	#14
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The ring does bind the handle, of course (not neccessarily as a repair for an existant split, but it helps prevent and contain any that do occur), as does the guard, as did the grip wrap. Precious metal is usually seen on kampilan in the form of nailed on coins on the pommel, or inlays in the blade. The toothbrush looking metal part that covers the "croc jaw" is certainly unusual though. I'm not sure why people are fascinated by the thinness of the metal in a way that seems critical of age or authenticity; many old ferules etc. are quite thin, including Moro ones; I'm not real nuts about the phenomenon,but I actually see it more on old pieces, with the exception of Chinese. The silver does not look ground upon to me, and a soft-buff would've hit the wood [ ] which I don't see; I think it was cleaned with a chemical wipe, such as Tarnex, etc. As to kampilan being plain users without decoration; I really don't agree; I'm not saying they're not badass fighting blades, but the hilts are often highly carved, and while the hair tufts may have some religio/magical purpose, they've always mostly seemed like showy decoration to me; not dis-similar to a Lakota's leather fringed garments, or a Zulu soldier's feathers, etc.

25th March 2005, 07:25 AM	#15
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	good thing I can only post one message at a time; my fever-trembling chin clicked the submitter about 13 times as I wrestled my cat .

25th March 2005, 07:42 AM	#16
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	What makes the metal stand out for me is not the thinness, I have seen many extremely thin fittings, but there is something about its uniformity that bugs me. Cant say that it is modern, but it has a precision/uniformity that just strikes me as odd. Anyways, not a big deal, just something that hits me funny. Personally I would read much into it, it doesnt take away from anything, its still a nice kampilan. Anyways, I agree whole-heartedly Kampilan were not just campaign swords. There are many fine examples, beyond the large carved heads, of extravagent kampilan. From completely silver plated hilts, bone/ivory hilts, banati hilts, etc... The Kampilan is claimed (in a similar fashion to the barong being claimed by Tausug) by some Mindanao groups as a national weapon (Im sorry cant remember which group). Sultan Kudarat is well known for bearing Kampilan as his favored sword. Its inclusion in court regalia (as far as period pics) is more than an occaisional token piece, from pics of sultans to pics of more lower level datus. However, due the natural difficulty in carrying such a large weapon everywhere, they arent something that were necessarily every day carry. Hmm...dunno where Im going with this, but then whats new.

25th March 2005, 08:48 AM	#17
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	May I suggest that it's the perfect-seeming flatness of the metal that looks odd; I think that's it; there is something.....it looks industrially-made; real flat, no hammer marks, which wouldn't make sense; I think it was just a real precise metal bending job; maybe the corners were made with a "brake", as in N American sheetmetal work; a type of bending vice/jig, instead of hammering. I don't know if PI traditionally uses such a tool though (I'm sure they do now).

25th March 2005, 06:44 PM	#18
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	I have been lurking in the dark on this one, pondering what it was that was bothering me. I think that Tom and Federico have identified my feeling. Although it could be silver, it is more pure than I usually encounter, and the depressions due to hammer marks are not present. I also must add that usually I encounter more lines and border work at the edges than I see here. I believe this to be a more modern attempt at older work. Not much research went into this restoration. Often the "eyes" would have had some silver on them and thus "re-animating" the spirit of the piece.

25th March 2005, 07:03 PM	#19
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	The white metal shows scratchs but no bumps or dents, so it was never on the sword durning use. The band around the hair plugs doesn't seem to go completely around, at least in the pics, where it is up for auction.