Unusual nimcha blade: need help

ariel · 7th April 2018, 08:34 PM

Here is a run-of-the-mill Moroccan Nimcha.
One unusual thing about it is its blade.
As a rule, Nimchas carry curved saber blade, and the majority I have encountered thus far are European trade examples.
This one has straight blade with large false edge. Also, locally-made blades have 3 narrow fullers. This one has 7.
The fullering and the false edge ( and, to a much less degree, straight construction) are very different from the usual local pattern. No markings to claim European origin.

Is this a more sophisticated local production?
Or, trade European blade with no markings?

Jens Nordlunde · 7th April 2018, 10:26 PM

Ariel,
The number of fullers seem to be very big, but what about the ricasso?
As you know I do know very little about these swords.
Jens

fernando · 7th April 2018, 11:18 PM

How about a close up of the blade far to the right, where the fullers converge.

Kubur · 8th April 2018, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

As a rule, Nimchas carry curved saber blade, and the majority I have encountered thus far are European trade examples.

Hi Ariel
I've seen many straight blades on nimchas, it's not uncommon,
most of the time old imported blades
But I can't say nothing about this blade.
Kubur

ariel · 8th April 2018, 02:41 AM

Here is the distal part of the blade with converging fullers.
I checked all my Arabian swords, including 2 Nimchas from Morocco: none of them have a ricasso, including trade European blades.

TVV · 8th April 2018, 03:27 AM

Ariel, glad you acquired this sword and thank you for sharing it here for discussion. From what I remember from the auction pictures you have also done an excellent job cleaning it. I wonder if the blade could be Indian due to the ricasso and the uneven fullering.

Teodor

fernando · 8th April 2018, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

... I wonder if the blade could be Indian due to the ricasso and the uneven fullering...

That's what i was daring to guess ... on an uneducated basis, though.

Kubur · 8th April 2018, 03:05 PM

Me too, Indian is reasonnable.
Now the question is do you think that the blade was added by a collector recently or in Morocco in the 18th 19th c.?
I'm very suspicious about an Indian blade on a Moroccan nimcha...

ariel · 8th April 2018, 03:13 PM

Guys,
Ricasso serves as a differentiating sign only between Indian and Persian Shamshir blades. Many European blades had ricasso and I wonder whether Indians not borrowed the idea of a ricasso from Europe.
I will have to look at my Indian straight- bladed ones.
Thanks to Jens for his gentle hint.
Fernando, did the converging fullers help you?
TVV, the cleaning job has just begun:-) Its wooden handle is dirty, dry and cracked, and has a lot of nasty thin splinters and worm holes. I will have to polish it, otherwise I would not be able to hold it without thick gloves. Then the natural wood color will disappear. Would staining it ( say, dark mahogany) be appropriate? Also, would filling the holes with stainable filler be OK?

ariel · 8th April 2018, 03:18 PM

Kubur,
No worry here about recent manipulations. It is all as original, as the moment it was created.

But I share your doubt about the Indian origin of the blade. I tend to think it is one of the multiple trade European ones and that is exactly why I posted it here.

fernando · 8th April 2018, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

...Fernando, did the converging fullers help you? ...

As i said, just an un-educated guess. One based on sight of some Indian fullering fashion, as seen, for one, in page 105 of Jorge Caravana collection catalogue (Rites of Power), which i assume you have a copy. But probably this is the wrong issue.

-

ariel · 8th April 2018, 07:59 PM

Yes, I do. I even have an identical one:-)
But this is a Tanjore katar commonly attributable to 16 century with a triangular form. One cannot have any other fullering.
We are talking about later swords, don’t we?

Any similar sword examples from 18-9 century?

I am not trying to be stubborn, just want to get to the bottom of it if possible.
I asked an acquaintance of mine who is very good in European swords, but he couldn’t place it.

Could the moderator create a link to the European section of this Forum?

fernando · 8th April 2018, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

...Could the moderator create a link to the European section of this Forum? ...

It may be copied, yes.

fernando · 8th April 2018, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

... But this is a Tanjore katar commonly attributable to 16 century with a triangular form. One cannot have any other fullering...

I warned you i might be talking nonsense

; notwithstanding that i was more foccusing on the fullers convergence as being an aesthetical option; i realized that even in the katar they could as well just fade away instead of all meeting together.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

... We are talking about later swords, don’t we?

The swords yes but, as you know, nimcha blades can be rather early ones; and at the end of the day, it is more plausible that the blade of yours is European, as it seems to happen all the time.

ariel · 9th April 2018, 11:53 AM

Thanks for connecting my query to the European Forum.

So, my question to the European specialists: any examples of similar blades in the European arsenal?

Norman McCormick · 9th April 2018, 02:28 PM

Hi Ariel,
Scottish backswords and broadswords are well known for multi fullered blades. These blades are European in origin with lots from the Solingen manufactories. Some have fullering the length of the blade and a ricasso similar to your blade but the vast majority I have seen tend to have some sort of markings. When I initially saw your blade my first thought was India and I'm still drawn to that source for this blade but who knows. Nice item regardless.
My Regards,
Norman.

Roland_M · 10th April 2018, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Thanks for connecting my query to the European Forum.

So, my question to the European specialists: any examples of similar blades in the European arsenal?

I'm relatively sure, that we see a blade of local production.

The fullers are to uneven for European production.

Please compare your fullers with the fullers of my Jiboula.

Roland

thinreadline · 17th April 2018, 09:45 AM

Here is one of my Indian swords with a similar multi fullered straight blade .

7th April 2018, 08:34 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Unusual nimcha blade: need help Here is a run-of-the-mill Moroccan Nimcha. One unusual thing about it is its blade. As a rule, Nimchas carry curved saber blade, and the majority I have encountered thus far are European trade examples. This one has straight blade with large false edge. Also, locally-made blades have 3 narrow fullers. This one has 7. The fullering and the false edge ( and, to a much less degree, straight construction) are very different from the usual local pattern. No markings to claim European origin. Is this a more sophisticated local production? Or, trade European blade with no markings? Attached Images

8th April 2018, 02:41 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Here is the distal part of the blade with converging fullers. I checked all my Arabian swords, including 2 Nimchas from Morocco: none of them have a ricasso, including trade European blades. Attached Images

17th April 2018, 09:45 AM	#18
thinreadline Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Wirral Posts: 1,204	Here is one of my Indian swords with a similar multi fullered straight blade . Attached Images

7th April 2018, 10:26 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ariel, The number of fullers seem to be very big, but what about the ricasso? As you know I do know very little about these swords. Jens

7th April 2018, 11:18 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	How about a close up of the blade far to the right, where the fullers converge.

8th April 2018, 03:27 AM	#6
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,625	Ariel, glad you acquired this sword and thank you for sharing it here for discussion. From what I remember from the auction pictures you have also done an excellent job cleaning it. I wonder if the blade could be Indian due to the ricasso and the uneven fullering. Teodor

8th April 2018, 03:05 PM	#8
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Me too, Indian is reasonnable. Now the question is do you think that the blade was added by a collector recently or in Morocco in the 18th 19th c.? I'm very suspicious about an Indian blade on a Moroccan nimcha...

8th April 2018, 03:13 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Guys, Ricasso serves as a differentiating sign only between Indian and Persian Shamshir blades. Many European blades had ricasso and I wonder whether Indians not borrowed the idea of a ricasso from Europe. I will have to look at my Indian straight- bladed ones. Thanks to Jens for his gentle hint. Fernando, did the converging fullers help you? TVV, the cleaning job has just begun:-) Its wooden handle is dirty, dry and cracked, and has a lot of nasty thin splinters and worm holes. I will have to polish it, otherwise I would not be able to hold it without thick gloves. Then the natural wood color will disappear. Would staining it ( say, dark mahogany) be appropriate? Also, would filling the holes with stainable filler be OK?

8th April 2018, 03:18 PM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Kubur, No worry here about recent manipulations. It is all as original, as the moment it was created. But I share your doubt about the Indian origin of the blade. I tend to think it is one of the multiple trade European ones and that is exactly why I posted it here.

8th April 2018, 07:59 PM	#12
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Yes, I do. I even have an identical one:-) But this is a Tanjore katar commonly attributable to 16 century with a triangular form. One cannot have any other fullering. We are talking about later swords, don’t we? Any similar sword examples from 18-9 century? I am not trying to be stubborn, just want to get to the bottom of it if possible. I asked an acquaintance of mine who is very good in European swords, but he couldn’t place it. Could the moderator create a link to the European section of this Forum?

9th April 2018, 11:53 AM	#15
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks for connecting my query to the European Forum. So, my question to the European specialists: any examples of similar blades in the European arsenal?

9th April 2018, 02:28 PM	#16
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Hi Ariel, Scottish backswords and broadswords are well known for multi fullered blades. These blades are European in origin with lots from the Solingen manufactories. Some have fullering the length of the blade and a ricasso similar to your blade but the vast majority I have seen tend to have some sort of markings. When I initially saw your blade my first thought was India and I'm still drawn to that source for this blade but who knows. Nice item regardless. My Regards, Norman.