It's a shamshir?

Flavio · 12th September 2006, 07:18 PM

Hi all, this is just ended, IMHO it's a nice sword but it's a shamshir?

http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...MEWA:IT&ih=017

Valjhun · 12th September 2006, 07:45 PM

Well, tecnically it is not. A tru shamshir has a narrower blade wich narrows all the way to the point and it has a big curve wich makes it unsuitable for thrusting and it is used only for slashing. The narrowing blade makes it a verry balanced weapon although it has such a small hilt for one hand.

In lack of another denomination collectoprs use to call it so due to the shamshir like hilt. That sword is syrian and I would call it syrian saif.

The word shamshir surely sells more thou.

Flavio · 12th September 2006, 08:18 PM

Hi Matej, anyway a nice sword, or not?

Battara · 12th September 2006, 08:32 PM

The top part of the blade (farthest away from the hilt) has the shape of a kilij, though an earlier form. I might call this a kilij.

TVV · 12th September 2006, 09:03 PM

I don't know Jose, but I do not see a yelman. It is really hard to tell from the small blurry picture. I personally think it could be a European blade, and I agree with Valjhun that the sword is most probably Syrian. Therefore saif is safe enough (as it is quite generic). Interesting hilt shape - something does not feel quite right about it. It could be a later replacement, together with the crossguard.
Flavio - from the poor pictures it is hard to make a value judgement, but to me it appears as a nice sword acquired at a decent price.

Valjhun · 12th September 2006, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

The top part of the blade (farthest away from the hilt) has the shape of a kilij, though an earlier form. I might call this a kilij.

Yes it has a double edge but, a true kilij is never grooved SUCH way. That blade looks more like one of thoose mounted on Sinai Bedouin swords and sometimes even on Nimchas. I agree with TVV that the blade might be European manufacture.

Yes, Flavio, it is a quite nice blade and nice crossguard, but I dont like the horn grip, wich it coukd be recent, especially the excessivelly downturned piece of it without any silver top and it seems that there never been one. Overall looks also too simple for a quality Syrian manufacture. I was intented to bid, but as a wise man said, one has to set his priorities.

S.Al-Anizi · 12th September 2006, 11:06 PM

Hi,

I agree with TVV, that hilt is most likely Syrian, although the blade is likely to be european, or, a local blade. Although I would support european manufacture, of the type called majjari between the bedouins.

ariel · 13th September 2006, 01:45 AM

The handle is quite strange, obviously replacement (and a clumsy one). The silver wire is wrapped unter the langet, whereas it should cover it.
As to the name.... Kilij (Kilic) is a generic Turkish word for a sword; just like "saif" is a generic Arabic one for same. My guess that a Persian would call any curved saber "shamshir", and the Ottoman Turk would call it "Kilic ajemi". Indo-Persian " Kilij"-type swords (with pronounced Yelman) were called Gaddara. Sword styles were so intermingled in that area, that it is often difficult to figure out the name: it probably depended more on the locality of the manufacture/usage and the nationality/ language of the user.
Short curved dagger would be called Jambiya in Western Arabia, Khanjar in Eastern Arabia, Koummya by the Moroccans, Shibriya by the Palestinian Arabs and Bebut by the Caucasians. Jim McDougall often brings an amusing example of us calling straight Sudanese swords "Kaskara", which would confuse any Sudanese: for them it is a "Saif". Indonesian islands have different names for perfectly similar swords/daggers.
There are far more languages/cultures than possible forms of the blades..... It makes life interesting and we can throw around fancy terminology to impress the "outsiders"

Flavio · 13th September 2006, 01:49 AM

Thank you very much, guys

12th September 2006, 07:18 PM	#1
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	It's a shamshir? Hi all, this is just ended, IMHO it's a nice sword but it's a shamshir? http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...MEWA:IT&ih=017

12th September 2006, 07:45 PM	#2
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Well, tecnically it is not. A tru shamshir has a narrower blade wich narrows all the way to the point and it has a big curve wich makes it unsuitable for thrusting and it is used only for slashing. The narrowing blade makes it a verry balanced weapon although it has such a small hilt for one hand. In lack of another denomination collectoprs use to call it so due to the shamshir like hilt. That sword is syrian and I would call it syrian saif. The word shamshir surely sells more thou.

12th September 2006, 08:18 PM	#3
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hi Matej, anyway a nice sword, or not?

12th September 2006, 08:32 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	The top part of the blade (farthest away from the hilt) has the shape of a kilij, though an earlier form. I might call this a kilij.

12th September 2006, 09:03 PM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,621	I don't know Jose, but I do not see a yelman. It is really hard to tell from the small blurry picture. I personally think it could be a European blade, and I agree with Valjhun that the sword is most probably Syrian. Therefore saif is safe enough (as it is quite generic). Interesting hilt shape - something does not feel quite right about it. It could be a later replacement, together with the crossguard. Flavio - from the poor pictures it is hard to make a value judgement, but to me it appears as a nice sword acquired at a decent price.

12th September 2006, 11:06 PM	#7
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Hi, I agree with TVV, that hilt is most likely Syrian, although the blade is likely to be european, or, a local blade. Although I would support european manufacture, of the type called majjari between the bedouins.

13th September 2006, 01:45 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The handle is quite strange, obviously replacement (and a clumsy one). The silver wire is wrapped unter the langet, whereas it should cover it. As to the name.... Kilij (Kilic) is a generic Turkish word for a sword; just like "saif" is a generic Arabic one for same. My guess that a Persian would call any curved saber "shamshir", and the Ottoman Turk would call it "Kilic ajemi". Indo-Persian " Kilij"-type swords (with pronounced Yelman) were called Gaddara. Sword styles were so intermingled in that area, that it is often difficult to figure out the name: it probably depended more on the locality of the manufacture/usage and the nationality/ language of the user. Short curved dagger would be called Jambiya in Western Arabia, Khanjar in Eastern Arabia, Koummya by the Moroccans, Shibriya by the Palestinian Arabs and Bebut by the Caucasians. Jim McDougall often brings an amusing example of us calling straight Sudanese swords "Kaskara", which would confuse any Sudanese: for them it is a "Saif". Indonesian islands have different names for perfectly similar swords/daggers. There are far more languages/cultures than possible forms of the blades..... It makes life interesting and we can throw around fancy terminology to impress the "outsiders"

13th September 2006, 01:49 AM	#9
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Thank you very much, guys