A cup hilt sword for coments.

[fernando]

According to seller this is a Spanish colonial specimen ... and i have no reason to doubt it.
Made of silver are the two ferules, the quillons and knuckle guard ends, the grip longitudinal bars, the grip nails and the two cup decoration buttons.
There are vestigial signs on the blade of the classic inscription NO ME SAQUES SIN RAZON ...
Wide and short ray skin covered grip, probably to lodge two fingers in the brass decorated ricasso.
On its way to my sweet home, arriving next week.
I expect the local friendly silver smith to replicate the missing grip nails.

.

[Jim McDougall]

Ok Nando! You know I cant resist Spanish Colonial, and cuphilts get me weak in the knees This example is really amazing, and I have never seen shagreen on anything Spanish Colonial. I feel compelled to add some observations so I must apologize in advance and hope it will not stall the thread.

This is as you have already noted, the strictly business type of cuphilt used on the frontiers of New Spain in the latter 18th century and actually probably well into the 19th. The Peninsular gentry of these regions still retained thier tradition and deep pride in thier noble heritage, and maintained thier fascination with fashions and weapons often considered obsolete elsewhere.
These heavy versions of the cuphilt were more 'arming swords' of course than rapiers, and carried double edged blades usually of hexagonal cross section which are believed to have been produced in Solingen for export to Spains New World colonies.
While it has been well established that the so called 'Spanish motto' noted on this blade, has been around far earlier than the period of these blades, c.1770s, it was indeed popularized largely by the volume of these blades that exist.

Getting to the intriguing grip on this, while it appears to be 'rayskin' which refers to the pearled rayfish, as used and well known on Oriental weapons, and even similar to Tatar swords of the 17th century (termed 'czeczuga' =small sturgeon, Ostrowski, 1979, p.232).....this may be something different.

Apparantly this fashionable covering was popularized in Europe by a master leatherworker in the court of Louis XV named Jean-Claude Galluchat (d.1774). It is noted that while possibly actual shagreen may have been used in cases, it was sometimes imitated by placing embedding seeds over untreated horse skin and covering with soft cloth, then applying pressure. The skin was then dyed from the reverse, often with green dye. This style became extremely popular with French aristocracy in the latter part of the 18th century.

I am wondering if perhaps this sword, the type known widely popular in Spains colonies in Florida and Cuba as well as South America, might have been mounted accordingly using this fashionable material. Obviously there was considerable contact between French and Spanish trade in the Gulf as well as throughout these regions in these times, so this may account for this extremely rare combination in this example.

Attached box covered in 'Galuchat', the term used for this style.

Beautiful piece Nando!!!

Best regards,
Jim

[fernando]

At last you show up, man .
But i am learning the trick; everytime i wish you to come around, i post a cup hilt sword
Thank you so much for the treatise.
However you know how irreverent i am, daring to (try and) oppose some of your brilliant reasoning, even if it is only for sports sake .
But let me first receive the sword and have a good look at it, to come back here with my humble position on the grip covering material ... among other things.
Keep well, Jim cow boy .

[Jim McDougall]

Ok ya rascal!!! You do absolutely know my weaknesses and a cuphilt will always drag me out of retirement!!!!
Not irreverant Nando, and I always look forward to opposition with the ideas and observations I throw out there,thats why I do it even if not totally sure of whether right or wrong, its how I learn...actually its how we all learn.
Thats why discussions are so important !

When you examine the sword we can have a better view of what the material is, and I know that it is quite likely that this might not be this galuchat material...it may indeed be actual shagreen. There was a great deal of interest in the Orient in the 18th century, and perhaps this rayskin could have been obtained in trade. I wanted to be sure that all options were out there pending your close examination. Whatever the case, this is an absolutely magnificent piece, and another important milestone in the study of these Spanish Colonial items. Nicely done!! and thank you my friend,

All the best,
Jim

[M ELEY]

I'm right there with you, Jim and 'Nando, on these magnificent swords. Sorry to be a late-comer, have been away for a bit. What a beautiful cup-hilt! I'm always amazed at how you find these pieces, my friend. I would kill to have one (well, maybe just maim- ). I've never seen this form of grip material or patterning before on one of these. Jim, I've never heard of this practice of making fake shagreen. Fascinating process, but I wonder why they make it so complicated? Rayskin seemed common enough on other Euro pieces of the times. In any case, I'm glad you spoke of it, as I'll file the info away for future reference.
The "nails" in the grip seem very interesting to me and seem to have an oriental look to me. As Jim pointed out, I know that there was a great interest of such things during this time period. Even the flat pommel strikes me as different from the typical cup-hilt. In any case, what a fine sword!
Soooo, now we know the trick to elicit a response from Jim. Start off with a pic of a nice cup-hilt before segueing to another subject! So, it will be like 'thanks for responding, Jim. Now, your opinion on narwhale tusks used on Claimore hilts!'

[Jim McDougall]

Yay, Capt. Mark!!! Thank you for coming in, I thought I had as usual, sent this thread to Davey Jones locker. So I see you note that you and Nando have my mark, and draw me out of the shadows with a pretty cuphilt
For you, the mention of nautical or Spanish Colonial will bring you in....now if we could figure as much for the hoardes lurking out there, and what it will take to get them onboard.

What!!! narwhal tusks on claymore hilts!!! ????? Auugghhhh! off again, hoist the mainsail!!!

All the best,
Jim

[fernando]

Hi Cap'n Mark,
Thanks for coming aboard ... better late than ever .

I see that the trick to bring you around is coming here to ask people their opinion on narwhale tusks used on Claimore hilts! .

Concerning how i find these pieces ... well, at specialized shops and websites; so they are not cheap at all. Each one of them costs more than a full load of powder kegs .

The grip silver nails; what i find more amazing in them, is that practicaly each one of them has a different shape.
I am thinking of asking my jewelry shop owner friend to have his smith to replicate (at least some of) the missing units.

Now Jim, are these pictures good enough to figure out what the grip cover material is? I confess i am amazed at the 'asterisk' shape of the worn 'bulbs'; would this be normal in ray skin ?

I wonder, as i find it admitable, that this hilt attitude was a later embelishment to this sword but, full of silver details as it is, it certainly belonged to an owner with a position higher that the common rank and file ... don't you guys agree?

Concerning this sword's age, can't you 'make it' a bit earlier ... to come close to seller's assumption: circa 1700?

Ah, something i almost forgot to mention; atypically, the inscription on the blade, instead of having engraved half of the sentence in each face, has the full phrase in both sides, in a double row manner.

.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Nando,
This is the beauty of discussion, and why it means so much, at least to me, to have questions asked regarding text in my posts. I learn by researching and posting what I have learned, and in many instances my wording can be unclear. Also, often I may make comment without rechecking original sources, which in this case, applies to the hilt style on this cuphilt.

I rechecked " Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821" (Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain, 1972) where one of these 'colonial' cuphilts appears (p.73, plate 130) and is indeed shown as c.1700. In the example shown, which was owned by Harold Peterson, the knucklebow is squared rather than curved, and there are minimal differences in the quillon terminals and pommel collar. These variations are so slight that they should be deemed inconsequential, and as with most colonial weapons, the 1700 date somewhat arbitrary.

Going to the grip material, I should clarify that the term 'shagreen' was originally used for rough untanned rawhide or leather often from a horses back. By the late 17th century and into the 18th the term had become applied to the use of sharkskin or rayskin, as had become known from Oriental weapons. While sharkskin is noted along with the rayskin, they are actually noticeably different and our focus is on the rayskin (probably the pearled ray, Hypolophus Sepheri) which has calcified papillae (look like pearls or domed pustules).

In rereading material, it seems that there was an earlier practice of creating faux rayskin by embedding plant seeds in the untreated horsehide while soft and trampling upon it, creating the papillaed effect. Presumably by 'earlier' this would suggest the end of the 17th century. By latter in the 18th century the use of rayskin and dying it from the back in green dye was popularized by Galuchat as previously noted.

The 'starburst' effect on these 'pearled' features on this grip, suggest that they have had force, such as crushing, effected upon them. The absence of the domes in some places suggest that possibly, if these were created by seeds, many had fallen away during the process. Since as mentioned, this process was an 'earlier' one, this may support the late 17th c. early 18th date we are seeking.

Also, regarding the 'Spanish motto' NO ME SAQUES SIN RAZON
NO ME ENVAYNES SIN HONOR
or its variations, this one listed in the Wallace Collection A641, and describing the blade as German late 17th-early 18th century. The author, Sir James Mann (1962) notes further in text that this motto occurs on blades c,1770 traded by P.Knecht in Solingen. This was a blade trading family, not makers, and presumably these were the 'dragoon' type blades I had noted earlier, and as described in Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain (op. cit.).

Since the blade is triangularly elongated, though also broadsword, it conforms more to earlier type blades, again supporting the earlier c.1700 date. It is my impression as well from the references in Wallace Collection, that the motto doublet appears in full with both lines on the blade face, rather than each line on opposite sides on the c.1770 dragoon blades.

I think these views will better support the earlier date and nature of this cuphilt which I consider a magnificent example of these outstanding and rugged examples of Spanish cuphilt from the New Spain frontiers.

Mark, as for the use of narwhal on the baskethilts, I would at this point consider such examples to be anomalies, but certainly well placed and desirable. Since this highly storied material was well known through the North Atlantic, especially with the Norse, I cannot see why it would not have been used for extremely high end examples of Scottish sword. The accompanying lore and myth associating these of course was maintained with that of the unicorn until very late times, which by that time had become more tradition than literal acceptance of myth. I'd really like to see examples of these Scottish swords with such hilts though!!!

All best regards,
Jim

[Carl M]

That is a beautiful sword! Where did you find it?

It seems to be a gray area between bilbo and rapier. The blade has a sharp taper, yet it is very broad. Speaking of bilbos, I just posted a thread that hasn't appeared yet on a bilbo I recently purchased at auction. I think it is a regimental pattern.

[M ELEY]

Ahhh, the narwhale worked as planned! Actually, I really didn't intend to steer attention away from this great sword. Last comment on the claimore, though. There was a great example with apparent age in an old Man-at-Arms magazine from the 90's. Impressive piece.

Now, back to this rapier. I am amazed once again with seeing details of the nails in the hilt. Truly, their design reminds me of Japanese menuki and someone went to a lot of trouble artistically to create them. They are just beautiful and their shapes appear to represent objects, at least symbolicly, just as Japanese sword furniture would have (I used to have an old wak with fuchi/menuki showing koi eating salmon roe, lily pads, cherry blossoms, etc, with gold relief. I miss them sometimes-sigh). Fernando, I agree with you that if you wish to replace them, you may want to inlist the work of a jeweler. An incredible sword. Now that you have this one, you can just send me one of your other plainer types ( )

[Jim McDougall]

Yes Capt. Mark, the narwhal 'red herring' and it would seem the Scots would naturally have had an affinity for this horn as thier national arms are supported heraldically by flanking unicorns

Carl, Im really glad you posted your bilbo here! It is really a great example, and good to see these Spanish Colonial weapons becoming so well represented here. These were of course military swords, but not really a particular regimental pattern. The dates that are applied to these swords such as '1728' were simply dates referring to regulamentos (if I recall correctly) of the years 1728 and 1768 where military inspections were emplaced to record the state of units and presidios at the time. Swords with these traditionally styled hilts were in use widely and over extremely long periods of time, especially on the frontiers.

Your blade is well placed here as it corresponds nicely to Fernando's cuphilt and is also of the somewhat triangularly elongated form, yet with the typical hexagonal cross section of the later dragoon blades.

The initials N M N on the blade are not for a maker but actually would probably be an acronym for a religious invocation such as those seen on much earlier sword blades, again a tradition long held and carried forward from such sacredotal inscriptions. Examples known from earlier are i.e. N E M, = Nomen Eternis Nomen and N O M , =Nomen Omnipotentis Nomen.

While cuphilts such as Fernando's were apparantly a favored horsemans weapon, the bilbos seem to have been often associated with infantry officers of line regiments in most cases I have seen. There seem to be a number of examples from Cuba and units in the Spanish holdings in Florida and Louisiana.

The differences between rapier and bilbo as seen here are in my view purely semantical, as these are both actually 'arming swords' which reflect earlier styles of rapier in tradional forms.

All the best,
Jim

[fernando]

Thanks a lot for your input, Gentlemen.
Jim, i am much obliged for you having focused my (and others) eyes into the (micro) composition of genuine shagreen on the grip cover of this sword.
It is indeed amazing that one thinks that the (re)source of 'prepared' shagreen appeared after actual ray (+shark) skin, whereas this method appeared afterwards.
On the other hand, while ray skin was used mainly for anti slippery purposes, original shagreen was also used for embelishment purposes, such as box and other object outer shells and also, and not less popular, for book bidings. I have read in the web a PDF article where shagreen binding was seen in 1734 in a Portuguese miniature almanach.
I have also gone into the ethimo/semantic area, learning that shagreen apparently comes from the Turc 'çagri' and refers to the horse croup, from where raw hide was originaly used for the preparation of the discussed material.
The translated term in portuguese is 'chagrem', althoug the galicism 'chagrin' is much more widely used.
Giving wings to imagination, would one find any connection between ray skin having been widely used in Japanese sword grips and the silver details of this sword reminding menuki decorations, as suggested by Mark? I will give a thought to that.
Thinking about replicating the missing silver nails, its shape diversity is so exquisite, that i hesitate before going into such adventure. I will have to see how the smith himself reacts.

[fernando]

For those with interest in more technical data ... like Chris Evans:
Blade length: 82 cms.
Blade thickness at forte: 6 mm.
Blade with at forte: 34 mm.
Quillons extension: 28,5 cms.
Cup width: 13 cms.
Total length:97 cms.
Ponit of balance (from quillons): 12 cms.
Weight: 912 grs.

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by fernando

For those with interest in more technical data ... like Chris Evans:
Ponit of balance (from quillons): 12 cms.

Much appreciated Fernando.

Just to make sure, the POB is from the quillons and not the where the cup meets the blade?

As I said in my PM, I am very, very envious.

Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Much appreciated Fernando.

Just to make sure, the POB is from the quillons and not the where the cup meets the blade?

As I said in my PM, I am very, very envious.

Cheers
Chris

Yes Chris, from the quillons ... as adviced .
Thanks much for your interest ... and envy .

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by fernando

Yes Chris, from the quillons ... as adviced .
Thanks much for your interest ... and envy .

Enjoy!

Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

Now, this is what i could call a rather reasonable reconstitution of the silver rivets on the right side of the grip.
Mind you, i didn't tell the silversmith what shape the new rivets should have; i confess i wouldn't know myself.
I decided to leave it to his imagination and the result is not so bad, i would say. So far i don't regret it.

.

.

[Jim McDougall]

Handsomely and imaginatively done Nando!!!! It would seem this artisan picked up nicely on the extant geometric embellishments remaining and did a superb job of following suit.
Thank you for sharing this! You know my weakness for these!!

All the best,
Jim

[Hotspur]

An interesting faux ray display. The Japanese would sometimes do this with polished bone bits, at times even with copper sheet as the substrate. I have never gotten a clear explanation as to what the Japanese term would be for such a process.

Cheers

GC

[M ELEY]

Fernando, I sent you a PM. Again, remember me in your will! Actually, I hope you live a very long time, my friend and continue to post amazing pieces such as this. Still green with envy...

[Jim McDougall]

Captain Mark, you guys OK over there in N.C.? Unbelievable that many tornados in one day!! Everything here in Texas is on fire, but we seem to be in one place in the middle away from the rest.

Didnt mean to sidetrack....this truly is a beauty of a sword, and Fernando's collection is undisputedly world class!!!

All the best,
Jim

[M ELEY]

Hello Jim,
Sorry, was away from the forum for awhile. We were lucky that the tornados didn't touch down in our area, but many were seen in surrounding counties. We did lose power for awhile, but out of respect to those that recieved the worst of the storms, I won't complain. I've seen the news on that spreading conflagration (!) in Texas, too big to call it anything else. I do hope you, your family and the Book Mobile ( ) is far away from any of the trouble spots. Thank you for asking.

Please continue with the discussion on this fantastic sword...

[dana_w]

This Spanish Colonial cup hilt has a grip very similar to the one posted by fernando. Maybe these photos might be useful here for comparison.

[fernando]

Dana, i have no words !
Definitely this grip and mine were made by the same workshop ... or even the same smith; not to say both swords came out from the same origin.
Can you advance some further info on this example ... a link, a description, anything ?
Tha would be rather interesting, not to say vital, for my sword record.

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by fernando

Dana, i have no words !
Definitely this grip and mine were made by the same workshop ... or even the same smith; not to say both swords came out from the same origin.
Can you advance some further info on this example ... a link, a description, anything ?
Tha would be rather interesting, not to say vital, for my sword record.

Hi fernando, I just knew that you'd want too see this cup hilt. I can't tell you much about it with any certainty. There are two contradictory stories and I have not been able to verify either of them. I know that it was purchased by father over ten years ago in St. Augustine Florida.

One story has it belonging to Georges Biassou, a slave who became a leader of the 1791 Haïtian Revolution. He fought with Spanish royalists against the French Revolutionary authorities in colonial Haïti. In 1795 Biassou moved to St. Augustine.

Another person has told me that they once owned the sword, and that it was purchased at a European auction house in the 90s.

I am working on the photos today. If you'd like I can post more images here when I am done along with the measurements. Maybe you and Jim can help me with the description...?

[fernando]

Thank you Dana.
I bet Jim will enjoy dissecting your sword historic provenance possibilities.
Mine was bought in a Spanish antique weapons site. But you know, this is a small world and things (swords) jump from one place to another with amazing facility.
I will be expecting further pictures and measurements of your piece.

[dana_w]

Here are the measurements, they are all approximate.

Blade length: 32 inches || 81.28 cm
Blade thickness at forte: 3/16 inches || .476 cm
Blade with at forte: 1 3/8 inches || 3.492 cm
Quillons extension: 3 1/8 inches || 7.937 cm
Cup width: 5 3/8 inches || 13.652 cm
Total length: 38 1/2 inches || 97.79 cm
Ponit of balance: about an inch from the bottom of the cup
Weight: 3 lb, 2 1/4 oz || 1.424 kg4

The cup seem to be made of iron with silver decorations.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for posting this Dana!!! It is really exciting to see another of these, and I also look forward to further details when you receive this.
As you know Fernando and I are obsessive on cuphilts and Cap'n Mark will be coming in as well I'm sure as soon as he gets back into port.

What is great is to see another of these curious grip types, and I will begin excavations here in the bookmobile to relocate notes etc. Here these kinds of anomalies and arms mysteries the case files are never closed...just pending.....and it really works when enthusiasts like yourself bring forth new examples and evidence. I cannot thank you enough!!!

All the very best,
Jim

[dana_w]

Here is one more photo. You can see how the silver is wrapped over the lip of the cup, and where some of it is missing on the left side of the photo.

[fernando]

Beautiful sword indeed, Dana
I am surprised with one detail ... which links to another.
Its weight is rather significant; 55% heavier than mine. Which is quite impressive, given that the overall dimensions of both are equivalent. Even your blade doesn't appear to be thicker than mine, although of a different profile. On the other hand the point of balance of yours is rather close from the guard; mine is almost 3 1/2" from the cup bottom.
We then may conclude that the cup of your sword is 'extremely' heavy, right ?
Maybe due to the bowl being made with (much) thicker iron plate, together with the weight of the multiple adornments ?
Can you check the blade ricasso inside the bowl and see if it is adorned ...something like mine, which has a brass decorated 'ferrule' ? This could indicate further familiarity in the smith style, due to being an uncommon procedure.


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