The Syrian Jambiya/Khanjar

[Atlantia]

Following on from email discussions with several forum members plus a couple of non-members who read these pages, I thought that it might be useful to try and identify the criteria needed to differentiate the georgraphic origins of these increasingly collected distinctive daggers.

As far as I can ascertain, there seem to be various manufacturing centres.
Damascus of course, Majdal Shams (مجدل شمس) in the Golan, and others.
So, what are the pointers for identifying the origin of these daggers?

I have some examples, and some thoughts. which I will return with later.
I know some other forumites have some very fine examples.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

...snip... I know some other forumites have some very fine examples.

Hi ...
my truth, which is not necessarily "THE" truth
concerning Syria (without Jordan or Israel)

it seems (?) that there are three different productions,
two ... nearly similar
- Magdali - Druze production from "Majdal Shams" (Tower of the sun) - Golan
- Damascus production

the third one, is for the Palestinian, an Bedouin Jordan market, .. more specific

the "Magdali's" is characterized by an hilt flatter, and less decorated
but with some poems (?) engraved on the blade, close to the hilt
I never got a chance to know what is writing, translation resist to all translators

- Damascus production, the hilt is carved in a more elaborated way
the blade is often with colored inserts dots or engraving stars 3 or more
red, black green, recalling the national colors,
it also has two or three gorges along its length,and has sometimes light engraving

as far as I know, the hilt are constituted of ;
- rings made from goats horn
- rings made from bone
- rings made by copper, or brass, could be by silvery
- sometimes inclusion of coral, mother of pearls
- sometime a date (one with me is dated 1923 Gregorian in Arabic characters ...)

that's what my friend "Rimon" told me and teach me
he is furbisher in Islamic edged weapons, and established in ... Damascus - Syria
all the best

à +

Dom

[Atlantia]

This type of dagger is often referred to as 'Majdali Daggers' as they are most famously made in Majdal Shams (مجدل شمس) in the Golan Heights, although (as Dom says) I believe that there are other centres of production including most famously Damascus but also I believe elsewhere around the modern border of Israel.
Here are my best two. An almost identical pair in near mint condition.
I have never seen others with their original suspension sashes.
I've always thought that these are classic 'Majdali Daggers' (from Majdal Shams) and despite the swollen hilt normally seen on the Damascus ones I'd stick with that origin, Dom?:

Edit: because my writing this crossed over with Dom's post, so I'm integrating my answer for clarity.

[Atlantia]

Hi Dom, Thank you for your help

Lovely examples btw.

So, following on from what Dom has already told us. These daggers traditionally have good quality thick blades of flattened diamond section. Double edged and steeply curving towards the tip.

While they at first glance have a garish tourist look, they are in fact serious things and generally more sturdy and rigid than most Arabian daggers.
They would easily punch through heavy clothing, even light armour!
Their construction is very similar to the knives of the Canary Islands, with disks of inlayed bone and horn slid onto a full length tang which are secured with a brass terminal often screwed into place by means of the tang being threaded toward the end.
As they age, the horn tends to loose its grip on the inlays and often small pieces are lost.

As variations, these do sometimes appear with 'other' influences apparent.
Ottoman for example, but I have even seen them with double edged blades that look like a Kindjal.

[DaveA]

I recently two jambiya reportedly from Syria. According to Dom's classification, the first one shown here would be Damascus. Am I correct?

best regards,

Dave A.

[DaveA]

This one doesn't seem to fit Dom's categories but the seller also claimed it was from Syria. Any insights?

- Dave A.

[DaveA]

Here is my third Syrian jambiya, provisionally identified as from Magdal Shams. Sorry I don't have better pictures at this time.

- Dave A.

[Atlantia]

Hi Dave,

The first and second I would say are Majdali type. Either from Majdal Shams or possibly one of the other villages in that area.
They look to have very good age.
These tend to date from 1920-1950. But those might be older (say 1900-1920). I would guess that the first is showing Ottoman rule in it's crescent and star decoration.

Good examples.

[Atlantia]

Here's a fairly standard Damascus type.
Interestingly, this has a slightly unusual inscription, which although typically a little rough, is legible enough that I can pick out the date of 1358, which I make to be 1939.

If anyone can pick out any other words I'd be interested?

[laEspadaAncha]

I find it interesting that both the (or just some?) Syrian and Jordanian Jambiyas are inscribed with the Gregorian date written in Arabic. Due to the confluence of cultures in and around the Holy Land, perhaps?

Anyway, I'll take and post a couple photos of my own Syrian example in a day or so...

[Devadatta]

Just to share mine...

[kahnjar1]

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6959
This in one that I once owned and the link to the tread which describes it. Same type of hilt but a straight blade and Neillo scabbard.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

I've always thought that these are classic 'Majdali Daggers' (from Majdal Shams) and despite the swollen hilt normally seen on the Damascus ones I'd stick with that origin, Dom?:

Funny, because they are a compromize between "Majdali" (blade) and Damascus (hilt)
they are with their original suspension cord ... and new
apparently, those two daggers have never been worn,
really they are just very beautiful
all the best

à +

Dom

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6959
This in one that I once owned and the link to the tread which describes it. Same type of hilt but a straight blade and Neillo scabbard.

One of the examples that I had in mind. I would say again that this is an example of Ottoman rule showing it's influence in Syrian Crafts.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Dom

Funny, because they are a compromize between "Majdali" (blade) and Damascus (hilt)
they are with their original suspension cord ... and new
apparently, those two daggers have never been worn,
really they are just very beautiful
all the best

à +

Dom

Thanks Dom, they are beauties. Old but near perfect.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Devadatta

Just to share mine...

Excellent examples.
I like the tray as well!!!
I actually had mine displayed with an Ottoman/Syrian tray for a while!
Which neatly brings me back to the influence of Ottoman rule on that part of the world.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by DaveA

Here is my third Syrian jambiya, provisionally identified as from Magdal Shams. Sorry I don't have better pictures at this time.

- Dave A.

Hi Dave
all your Syrian jambiya are ...
"Majdali" type from "Magdal Shams - Golan"
very well typed I just Love them

à +

Dom

[Dom]

Originally Posted by DaveA

This one doesn't seem to fit Dom's categories but the seller also claimed it was from Syria. Any insights?

- Dave A.

and the seller was fully correct
more Syrian than that I.M.P.O.S.S.I.B.L.E
specifically from Golan Mountains ... it's a splendid "Majdali"

à +

Dom

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Excellent examples.
I like the tray as well!!!
I actually had mine displayed with an Ottoman/Syrian tray for a while!
Which neatly brings me back to the influence of Ottoman rule on that part of the world.

Dom and Mrs Dom, have been kind enought to provide a translation of the Syrian tray I posted:

Central Tughra: Abdülhamid II

Outer panels:

"- 1 - MASAA'AEB EL ENDA ASSABRE read it normally, and you will have the Arabic reading)
- 1 - THE PATIENCE IN CATASTROPHE

- 2 - MAWAHEB EL AZAMETE MENE
- 2 - IS FROM A GREAT TALENT

- 3 (above) - DAMASCUS SANA 1908
- 3 (below) - NASSAM AMAL

- 3 (above) - YEAR 1908 DAMASCUS
- 3 (below) - DONE BY NASSAM

- 4 - ABIB AL ZEKHRE ALA CHOURBENA MAZAK
- 4 - WITH THE TASTE OF OUR DRINKS, WE WE RECALL, THE MEMORY OF OUR LOVER (under-meaning, the Holy Prophet Mohamed)"

Thank you my friend.

[ariel]

Two and a half years ago, I posted here a real sword with identical handle. Then, it did not attract any attention.
Perhaps, it can add something to the present discussion.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=druze

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by ariel

Two and a half years ago, I posted here a real sword with identical handle. Then, it did not attract any attention.
Perhaps, it can add something to the present discussion.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=druze

Hi Ariel,

It appears to be a standard (size and shape) 'Damascus' type dagger hilt mounted to a sword blade. Rather than some specific sword variation of that type.
There seem to be no adaptations or even concessions to the longer blade, even though Syrian swords are often Shamshir type (with guards) and the blade is a sabre which presumably had a guard of familiar type.
Also of course the blade is a 'foreign' sabre and not a Syrian blade (like those in the daggers).
The scabbard mounts are a mixture of the usual kind of 'shamshir' scabbard hangers and crude throat/chape that follow the general construction of those scabbards seen on the daggers.

So, I'd guess that this is a genuine period hybrid rather than a recognised tpye. An atypical re-using of a sabre blade by local craftsmen.
I'd guess at a date of between the wars.

Best
Gene

[Kubur]

Hi Guys
I know that is an old post.
But I have one question, you date these daggers, for the oldest ones, from the 1920ties. If you look the Charles Buttin catalogue, you will see the same kind of dagger dated from the 19th c. My question is do you think that sometimes you underestimate the antiquity of some objects? It's a classic case with the experimented collectors or the good dealers, they don't want to surestimate the age of an object... Just the opposite of the young collectors and bad dealers who want to make some money.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Guys
I know that is an old post.
But I have one question, you date these daggers, for the oldest ones, from the 1920ties. If you look the Charles Buttin catalogue, you will see the same kind of dagger dated from the 19th c. My question is do you think that sometimes you underestimate the antiquity of some objects? It's a classic case with the experimented collectors or the good dealers, they don't want to surestimate the age of an object... Just the opposite of the young collectors and bad dealers who want to make some money.

Hi Kubur,
I think that what you suggest is probably quite true. It must be remembered that this type of weapon was not generally made in a factory, so that unlike (for example) English Firearms from known makers, where production information is usually readily available, ACTUAL manufacture dates of these, and other "ethnic" daggers and weapons can not generally be accurately verified. We have publications from early travellers in the region, and more modern publications, but I am sure that all of these probably contain some errors. In the end it comes down to the knowledge (or lack of it) of the individual to determine the age of an item.
The bottom line is LET THE BUYER BEWARE. I have before quoted this statement made to me years ago by a now long gone collector. He said to me that "If it does not look right, then it probably isn't". This has stood me in good stead over the years.
Stu

[Kubur]

Just to come back at this old post and what I said about these daggers. Some of them are clearly from the 19th c. Look at the silver or lead star patterns, they are exactly the same on the the Syrian or badawi swords...

[Kubur]

Instead of opening a new thread I prefer to feed this one
Here a pic from Tarsus Museum in Turkey:
note the Majdali with a nice Turkish? Kurdish? scabbard... Late 19th or very early 20th c...

[Montagnard]

At first, I thought it would be a typical tourist dagger...

But now I think it might be an original?

From the pics above I would say that it fits to the Damaskus style, see the three stars on the blade. Anybody out there who can help in translating/explaning the engraving?

Any comments regarding its origin, inscription and age would be highly welcome

BR,
Montagnard

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Montagnard

At first, I thought it would be a typical tourist dagger...
But now I think it might be an original?
From the pics above I would say that it fits to the Damaskus style, see the three stars on the blade. Anybody out there who can help in translating/explaning the engraving?
Any comments regarding its origin, inscription and age would be highly welcome
BR,
Montagnard

Hi,
First this tourist stories are nonsense, many forum members are talking about that but most of the weapons here are for tourists, the question is more are they old and are they produced manually / traditionally? Did they have been used by locals too?
You can put in this "bag" most of the Indian and Persian weapons from the end of the 19th and early 20th c.
Your dagger is a Syrian Magdali or Majdali, probably 1930-40, during the French mandate. Did the Syrians or Druze in fact (for this area) used this dagger? the answser is yes, did they sell souvenirs to the French and the first tourists? the answser is yes.
So be carreful on this forum, you will see members with very strong ideas and opinions, but they are just opinions, this statment includes myself.
Your dagger is engraved instead of the classic acid etching and the hilt is decorated only on one face that is a very good sign.
I don't know for the inscription sometimes it's just written "souvenir de Syrie", it's not a joke...
Kubur

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Montagnard

At first, I thought it would be a typical tourist dagger...

But now I think it might be an original?

From the pics above I would say that it fits to the Damaskus style, see the three stars on the blade. Anybody out there who can help in translating/explaning the engraving?

Any comments regarding its origin, inscription and age would be highly welcome

BR,
Montagnard

Whether it is original or not is a matter of opinion. Is a mass produced dagger made in Syrian design and in Syria an authentic representation of historic Syrian daggers? it is up to you to decide.

Those daggers are made with plastic hilts and sometimes synthetic MoP with brass and etched sheet steel blades. They look not so different compared to the older ones except in quality and in fine details. Older blades are high quality with some having complicated fullering.

Yours is no different from pieces mass produced in the 2000's, they could be commonly found in antique shops around the Arab world.

Majdalis from the early 20th century are generally of high quality for what they are.

[motan]

Hello all,
I agree with some of Kubur's and A.alnakkas' comments, but disagree with others. The identification by A.alnakkas is, I think, correct. Montagnard's dagger is a late 20th c. or Early 21st c. dagger made exclusively for the souvenir market. They are made to this day not only in Syria, but in Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan en China.
However, I also agree with Kubur that the distinction between tourist and original pieces is not clear-cut, especially where locals still carry daggers, or have done so until recently like in Morocco, Oman, UAE, KSA, Jordan, Afghanistan and several others.
If your aim is to collect nice weapons, you may not care too much about authenticity. If you are more interested in the ethnographic aspect, like I am, it could matter a lot. I personally prefer pieces with signs of use to pristine ones because that way I can be sure. Most collectors prefer 100% clean examples. So, there is a continuum between tourist and authentic items and it is a matter of personal preference what you consider "original".

As for Majdali daggers, it is true that early pieces are generally of better quality, but this is certainly not 1:1 relationship. There are old ones of mediocre quality, like the very first example in this thread, and later ones of excellent quality like in my picture (from Artzi's site). There was a particular low point of quality around or just before 1960 (see DaveA's third example in this thread-sorry DaveA, but your second one is also the best and oldest in this thread) so that you can not really say that modern ones are worse.

[Montagnard]

Dear Gentlemen,

since my dagger has not the slightest traces of use, I finally follow the conclusion that it is a late 20th c. or Early 21st c. piece made exclusively for the souvenir market.

Thank you all for your expertise.
Montagnard