Knife Identification

[Jerseyman]

I've had this blade for quite a while but have had no luck in identifying its origins.

The stupa style pommel reminds me of Nepalese/Tibetan kora. The scabbard bindings remind me of many Indonesian weapons I have. But the form of the blade is strongly reminiscent of various SEA dha/daarb that I have and have seen.

The pommel is weighty and made of brass. The hilt is half rattan wrap and half snake/lizard skin.

The scabbard locket seems to be copper plate bonded to snake/lizard skin. The scabbard body a light-weight dark wood with all its bindings in place. The chape is again snake/lizard skin. Everything is tight and fixed.

Not sure what the red elements are, but I suspect it's remnants of polishing compound.

The blade is almost flat on one side with an edge profile on the other. There seems to be some evidence of a tempered edge. Single-edged, the concave/squared end has a false edge. The spine is ridged. All is tight.

The light has caught the end of the tang in the pommel in such a way as to really highlight it in the photo - actually it's completely smooth and barely visible.

Apologies for the quality of the photos.

Dimensions:

Full length in scabbard - 4800mm/19in
Pommel length - 60mm/2 1/1in
Full hilt length - 1450mm/5 1/2in
Blade length - 2900mm/11 1/2in
Blade depth near hilt - 30mm/1 1/4in
Blade depth at end - 40mm/2 2/3in
Blade width near hilt - 4mm
Blade width at end - 1.5mm
Scabbard length - 3350mm/13 1/4in
Locket depth - 65mm/2 1/2in
Locket width - 25mm/1in
Scabbard depth - 50mm/1 7/8in
Scabbard width near locket - 20mm/3/4in
Scabbard width near chape - 14mm/1/2in
Locket length - 40mm/1 5/8in
Locket depth - 52mm/2in
Locket width - 12mm/1/2in

The weight sits back in the hand and makes this a very efficient fighting weapon.

Any thoughts welcome.

[Jerseyman]

And a few more photos

[Sajen]

It seems to be a more as unusual Kachin dao, the blade seems typical. Also the small rattan bindings at the handle and scabbard would suggest a Burmese or Kachin origin. More as curious what others have to say.

Regards,
Detlef

[Ian]

Jerseyman:

Thank you for presenting this interesting knife/sword.

The presence of snake/lizard skin at the throat and toe of the scabbard is most unusual for mainland SE Asian dha/darb/darv, while the braided rattan strips used to wrap the two wooden pieces of the scabbard are quite typical of that region. I notice that the braided rattan around the two pieces of snake/lizard skin is paler than the rest of the bindings, so perhaps the skin was added later.

This particular brass/bronze hilt is also very unusual for a SE Asian dha/dharb/darv. Lao and Cambodian knives and swords featured cast copper alloy hilts in the remote past (pre-19th C), but the lobulated shape of this hilt does not ring any bells for me. Detlef has suggested a Kachin origin, but again this hilt does not fit with any I have seen on knives or swords from northern Burma or nearby regions (such as Nagaland or Assam). The blade shape is widespread in mainland SE Asia and parts of neighboring southern China, so it does not really help in identifying a more precise origin.

I cannot tell you from what animal the skin came, although Barry (VANDOO) might be able to help. This may be useful in narrowing down the region of origin.

My best guess is that this knife comes from one of the hill tribes of Laos/Cambodia/Vietnam whom the French referred to as "montagnard." It is also possible that this is not from mainland SE Asia but from Sumatra or Borneo--however, I could find nothing in Albert v. Zonneveld's book that resembled it.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

Ian.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ian

Jerseyman:

Thank you for presenting this interesting knife/sword.

The presence of snake/lizard skin at the throat and toe of the scabbard is most unusual for mainland SE Asian dha/darb/darv, while the braided rattan strips used to wrap the two wooden pieces of the scabbard are quite typical of that region. I notice that the braided rattan around the two pieces of snake/lizard skin is paler than the rest of the bindings, so perhaps the skin was added later.

This particular brass/bronze hilt is also very unusual for a SE Asian dha/dharb/darv. Lao and Cambodian knives and swords featured cast copper alloy hilts in the remote past (pre-19th C), but the lobulated shape of this hilt does not ring any bells for me. Detlef has suggested a Kachin origin, but again this hilt does not fit with any I have seen on knives or swords from northern Burma or nearby regions (such as Nagaland or Assam). The blade shape is widespread in mainland SE Asia and parts of neighboring southern China, so it does not really help in identifying a more precise origin.

I cannot tell you from what animal the skin came, although Barry (VANDOO) might be able to help. This may be useful in narrowing down the region of origin.

My best guess is that this knife comes from one of the hill tribes of Laos/Cambodia/Vietnam whom the French referred to as "montagnard." It is also possible that this is not from mainland SE Asia but from Sumatra or Borneo--however, I could find nothing in Albert v. Zonneveld's book that resembled it.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

Ian.

Are we in fact sure that it IS skin of some sort? The hatching looks very even to be skin. Could it be a very nice example of weaving?
Stu

[Ian]

Doing a quick search for similar skin patterns, I came across Russel's pit viper which is found widely in mainland SE Asia. It is venomous and dangerous to humans. Here is a web picture. The rings and general color seem to match the skin on the scabbard.

Ian.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Are we in fact sure that it IS skin of some sort? The hatching looks very even to be skin. Could it be a very nice example of weaving?
Stu

Stu, I'm pretty sure this is reptile skin (and Jerseyman has handled it). If you look at the picture of the snake I posted, it is quite remarkable how geometric the shapes can be.

Ian

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ian

Stu, I'm pretty sure this is reptile skin (and Jerseyman has handled it). If you look at the picture of the snake I posted, it is quite remarkable how geometric the shapes can be.

Ian

True......I was probably thinking of other skins such as crocodile which tend to have more of a "scale" effect. Just an observation on my part..........

[Jerseyman]

Ian and Stu - thank you for your considered responses.

A little more information - it is definitely skin of some description, though I understand thinking it might be a weave - I have a couple of naga dao with nicely woven bi-colour rattan.

The Russell's Pit Viper is a remarkable match! Thanks for spotting that.

On closer examination I think the pommel might actually be constructed from two, possibly three different metals. A redder, possibly copper alloy, a yellower, possibly brass element and the final flat button a darker grey metal.

It is possible that the hilt, locket and chape are later additions - but I'm not sure. Something indefinable in the visual balance and close-up viewing of the piece makes me feel they were constructed together. It is a very well made, good quality item.

Montagnard is an interesting suggestion - not an area of tribes I know much about.

[Ian]

Jerseyman:

You might take a look at some of the prior threads here that discuss the Montagnard swords. Here is one thread that has a few examples: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=862 You might want to check post #12 where there is a brass hilt that might resemble yours to some extent--that darb looks like it comes from N. Thailand/Laos.

Ian

[T. Koch]

Hi guys!

The skin is is from one of the large pythons. Hard to be absolutely sure when the patch is as small as this, but IMO it's from a reticulated python, P. reticulatus, native to South East Asia from India to Indonesia.

Cool sword!

PS: Russel's viper does not belong to the family of pit vipers (Crotalinae) - it is a true viper and belongs in the subfamily Viperinae.


Cheers, - Thor

[Ian]

Thank you Thor. Yes, the python looks a better match. My suggestion was based purely on the pattern and no specific knowledge about snakes of the region.

Originally Posted by T. Koch

Hi guys!

The skin is is from one of the large pythons. Hard to be absolutely sure when the patch is as small as this, but IMO it's from a reticulated python, P. reticulatus, native to South East Asia from India to Indonesia.

Cool sword!

PS: Russel's viper does not belong to the family of pit vipers (Crotalinae) - it is a true viper and belongs in the subfamily Viperinae.


Cheers, - Thor

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Ian

Thank you Thor. Yes, the python looks a better match. My suggestion was based purely on the pattern and no specific knowledge about snakes of the region.

That was a good call Ian, I couldn't tell if it was lizard or snake. Impressive pattern (would be great boots!) and sure seemed a good match.
I am often amazed at how almost 'artificial' the reticulation on many reptile hides appears. Mother nature is phenomenal.
I know zippity doo dah on the edged weapons of these regions, but that blade does seem Kachin from what little I do know.

As far as snakeskin on the collar of that scabbard, that IS intriguing. Never have seen such decoration used in SE Asia, but that scabbard reminds me of Burmese dao, and the squared Chinese style scabbard chape.