A Plug Bayonet for comments

fernando · 9th July 2016, 10:54 PM

I wonder if you guys know something about these things.
This example has no marks, which limits a lot its identification.
Using as a reference the work of R.D.C. Evans, the cup shaped ferrule rounding the swell is a 18th. century German fashion, eventually also seen in Portuguese examples. The screwable pommel was used largely in the 19th century, although earlier examples shown in the same work have such detail. Eventually such pommel is stuck and not completely screwed into place and, one overnight soaked with WH-40 didn't do it, so i gave up trying to dismount it before any wrong doing.
The double edged, slightly diamond section blade of waving form (flamboyant, as Evans liked to call it), has a length of 25 cms. One detail showing that this blade was made for a bayonet (and not shortened from that of a sword ) is the little (sort of) ricasso in both of its base sides. Total length 41,5 cms. Weight 297 grams.
Any comments would be so much welcome.

.

fernando · 11th July 2016, 02:26 PM

Gentlemen ... not a word ?

corrado26 · 11th July 2016, 07:23 PM

I found a foto of a similar plug bajonet and as my source says bajonets with such blades are mostly made not for military purpose but for hunting use.
corrado26

machinist · 11th July 2016, 07:24 PM

I do like the hilt especially, it seems older and more made to be used than most of what I see for sale.

fernando · 11th July 2016, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

I found a foto of a similar plug bajonet and as my source says bajonets with such blades are mostly made not for military purpose but for hunting use.
corrado26

Thank you for your comments and pictures, Corrado.
I see that the example you post with the waving blade is an example from the 17th. century, belonging to the collection of the Royal Armouries (object X-688), also present in R.C.D. Evans work THE PLUG BAYONET.
Eventually this and the other bayonets shown in the book with this type of blade are practically all of British origin ... and all said to be for military (officers) use. Actually in the preface of the British bayonets section, Evans reminds us that, there is no documentary evidence that the British plug bayonet was ever used for hunting purposes. Naturally this refers to British costumes and not necessarily those of other regions but, the truth is that plug bayonets with waving blades are apparently rather rare to find elsewhere.
Still i have a feeling that the discussed example, although of foreign influence, is of Portuguese origin ... especially because i would like it to be so

.

fernando · 11th July 2016, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by machinist

I do like the hilt especially, it seems older and more made to be used than most of what I see for sale.

Thank you for your comments.
Yes, definitely looks like an operational and honest hilt. A pity that i couldn't turn off the pommel; maybe (maybe) i could find some marks in the tang. I would place this bayonet in the late 18th-beg. 19th century ... until i stand corrected.

Jim McDougall · 12th July 2016, 09:12 PM

Fernando, this is an intriguing 'plug' bayonet, and interesting to read the thoughts on its origin. It seems the late Roger Evans was pretty thorough in his book, but of course it is impossible to place every possible bit of info in any single reference. Still, in my opinion, there is virtually nobody who knew the world of the bayonet like him.
Perhaps he left these little gaps unattended just so we later enthusiasts had something left to do

As I know you have looked through his book thoroughly, in addition to your inherent knowledge on these weapons, I believe we have a true anomaly here. If I might throw in a note perhaps on the more esoteric side.

You note that most (all?) of these plug bayonets with undulating blade in Great Britain were for military officers. As it seems that one of the driving forces in the remarkably long use of the plug bayonet (mostly in Spain, and likely Portugal of course) was through tradition, not necessarily use in its original intention.
In England, clearly the use of the socket bayonet had replaced use of the plug bayonet in British military long guns by the 18th century.

Therefore, it would seem that a plug bayonet might be an item of vestigial importance more as an icon of tradition, at least in English context (I believe the Spanish used them more as a traditionally styled knife for hunting) .

While it is noted by Mr. Evans that no documented evidence exists showing the British ever using a plug bayonet for hunting purposes, we might assume that it might serve a ceremonial or traditional purpose . Perhaps in the manner of the 'gorget'.

In the 18th century in England, the Freemasonry phenomenon had taken hold with the upper classes, which of course included the military officers. In Freemasonry, in their tradition, they have the case of the Tyler's sword, which in their lore is often described as undulating blade (the flaming sword as described in the Bible). In the case of knightly tales, the broadsword with undulating blade is often described, erroneously termed 'flamberge', but referred to with swords of legendary figures such as Roland.

Might this plug bayonet be 'ceremonial' ? perhaps owing to these traditional and in a sense heraldic or knightly holdings, and used in such sense.
It would seem that with the well established contact between England and Portugal in the latter 18th century would open the possibility of placing this plug bayonet in their sphere as well, even into opening years of the 19th c. as we know many English arms were sent into Portugal.
The brotherhoods and orders which included Freemasonry and others certainly transcended any geographic, political or religious borders in most cases, so seems plausible.

fernando · 13th July 2016, 04:01 PM

Thank you for your input, Jim.
First thing is to confess that i don't read any book thoroughly; i page them now an then and consult them when i need ... thus finding new stuff each time i open them.
But trying to link to your notes ...
I would rater put in separate sentences that: A-Plug bayonets in Britain were basicaly used by military. B-Plug bayonets with undulating blades are mostly affected to British typology. One thing does not oblige for the other (syllogism ?)
Agreed that, this type of bayonet, being (only) a military implement for the British, ceased its activity when socket bayonets took its place. Following the same reasoning it is improbable that the example in discussion was brought by the Brits to Portugal as those massive downloads of weapons took place at a much later stage, with a heavy accent in the early 19th centuries for the Peninsular War, when the use of these things in Britain was long gone.
Also agreed that, the plug bayonet followed a more continued path in Spain, having become a traditional resource for hunting muzzle loading escopetas and, as well recorded, later becoming a decoration and ceremonial device; or even to complement the attire of uniforms, like those of Royal Estate gamekeepers we see caring for King Alfonso III (Plug Bayonet page 143), by the time shot guns had no need for bayonet emergency support. But i would not regard the specimen in discussion as being a ceremonial adornment; those were more worked up and decorated and less weapon looking, as we may see several around from Toledo output.
So the riddle remains; a ferrule of Germanic invention, a blade popular for the British and a hilt that nothing prevents to be Spanish ... or Portuguese; like this other example from my tiny collection.
So, in absence of inequivocal evidence, i (sentimentaly) elect it as a setup of Portuguese initiative ... if you don't mind, of course

.

.

Jim McDougall · 13th July 2016, 05:24 PM

I rest my case Fernando! Your detailed and itemized assessments reveal the depth of the knowledge you have absorbed on these topics through your consultations of these references. I know that I am also very much a 'browser' rather than reader.

I would note here that your 'sentimentality' in estimating the origin of this bayonet is probably well placed, even without distinct or specific evidence.
In my view, subjective observations and are profoundly important in the absence of more definitive evidence, especially when rendered by those with profound experience and tenure in a certain field.

While my suggestions toward possible ceremonial or Masonic connections is admittedly tenuous, it was noted as an interesting possibility. However I am inclined to agree more with your well reasoned and explained thoughts.
There is a lot to be said for 'sentimentality', which I think in situations forensically and investigatively, is referred to as a 'gut' feeling

Good stuff Fernando!

fernando · 13th July 2016, 07:04 PM

Thank you Jim but, you know, esoterism is not my preferred beach

. And when i mention sentimentalism, i am admiting that i am only pulling the ball towards my team. I have no solid base to form an honest feeling.

9th July 2016, 10:54 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A Plug Bayonet for comments I wonder if you guys know something about these things. This example has no marks, which limits a lot its identification. Using as a reference the work of R.D.C. Evans, the cup shaped ferrule rounding the swell is a 18th. century German fashion, eventually also seen in Portuguese examples. The screwable pommel was used largely in the 19th century, although earlier examples shown in the same work have such detail. Eventually such pommel is stuck and not completely screwed into place and, one overnight soaked with WH-40 didn't do it, so i gave up trying to dismount it before any wrong doing. The double edged, slightly diamond section blade of waving form (flamboyant, as Evans liked to call it), has a length of 25 cms. One detail showing that this blade was made for a bayonet (and not shortened from that of a sword ) is the little (sort of) ricasso in both of its base sides. Total length 41,5 cms. Weight 297 grams. Any comments would be so much welcome. . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 10th July 2016 at 01:34 PM.

11th July 2016, 07:23 PM	#3
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,207	I found a foto of a similar plug bajonet and as my source says bajonets with such blades are mostly made not for military purpose but for hunting use. corrado26 Attached Images

13th July 2016, 04:01 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you for your input, Jim. First thing is to confess that i don't read any book thoroughly; i page them now an then and consult them when i need ... thus finding new stuff each time i open them. But trying to link to your notes ... I would rater put in separate sentences that: A-Plug bayonets in Britain were basicaly used by military. B-Plug bayonets with undulating blades are mostly affected to British typology. One thing does not oblige for the other (syllogism ?) Agreed that, this type of bayonet, being (only) a military implement for the British, ceased its activity when socket bayonets took its place. Following the same reasoning it is improbable that the example in discussion was brought by the Brits to Portugal as those massive downloads of weapons took place at a much later stage, with a heavy accent in the early 19th centuries for the Peninsular War, when the use of these things in Britain was long gone. Also agreed that, the plug bayonet followed a more continued path in Spain, having become a traditional resource for hunting muzzle loading escopetas and, as well recorded, later becoming a decoration and ceremonial device; or even to complement the attire of uniforms, like those of Royal Estate gamekeepers we see caring for King Alfonso III (Plug Bayonet page 143), by the time shot guns had no need for bayonet emergency support. But i would not regard the specimen in discussion as being a ceremonial adornment; those were more worked up and decorated and less weapon looking, as we may see several around from Toledo output. So the riddle remains; a ferrule of Germanic invention, a blade popular for the British and a hilt that nothing prevents to be Spanish ... or Portuguese; like this other example from my tiny collection. So, in absence of inequivocal evidence, i (sentimentaly) elect it as a setup of Portuguese initiative ... if you don't mind, of course . . Attached Images

11th July 2016, 02:26 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Gentlemen ... not a word ?

11th July 2016, 07:24 PM	#4
machinist Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 93	I do like the hilt especially, it seems older and more made to be used than most of what I see for sale.

12th July 2016, 09:12 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Fernando, this is an intriguing 'plug' bayonet, and interesting to read the thoughts on its origin. It seems the late Roger Evans was pretty thorough in his book, but of course it is impossible to place every possible bit of info in any single reference. Still, in my opinion, there is virtually nobody who knew the world of the bayonet like him. Perhaps he left these little gaps unattended just so we later enthusiasts had something left to do As I know you have looked through his book thoroughly, in addition to your inherent knowledge on these weapons, I believe we have a true anomaly here. If I might throw in a note perhaps on the more esoteric side. You note that most (all?) of these plug bayonets with undulating blade in Great Britain were for military officers. As it seems that one of the driving forces in the remarkably long use of the plug bayonet (mostly in Spain, and likely Portugal of course) was through tradition, not necessarily use in its original intention. In England, clearly the use of the socket bayonet had replaced use of the plug bayonet in British military long guns by the 18th century. Therefore, it would seem that a plug bayonet might be an item of vestigial importance more as an icon of tradition, at least in English context (I believe the Spanish used them more as a traditionally styled knife for hunting) . While it is noted by Mr. Evans that no documented evidence exists showing the British ever using a plug bayonet for hunting purposes, we might assume that it might serve a ceremonial or traditional purpose . Perhaps in the manner of the 'gorget'. In the 18th century in England, the Freemasonry phenomenon had taken hold with the upper classes, which of course included the military officers. In Freemasonry, in their tradition, they have the case of the Tyler's sword, which in their lore is often described as undulating blade (the flaming sword as described in the Bible). In the case of knightly tales, the broadsword with undulating blade is often described, erroneously termed 'flamberge', but referred to with swords of legendary figures such as Roland. Might this plug bayonet be 'ceremonial' ? perhaps owing to these traditional and in a sense heraldic or knightly holdings, and used in such sense. It would seem that with the well established contact between England and Portugal in the latter 18th century would open the possibility of placing this plug bayonet in their sphere as well, even into opening years of the 19th c. as we know many English arms were sent into Portugal. The brotherhoods and orders which included Freemasonry and others certainly transcended any geographic, political or religious borders in most cases, so seems plausible.

13th July 2016, 05:24 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	I rest my case Fernando! Your detailed and itemized assessments reveal the depth of the knowledge you have absorbed on these topics through your consultations of these references. I know that I am also very much a 'browser' rather than reader. I would note here that your 'sentimentality' in estimating the origin of this bayonet is probably well placed, even without distinct or specific evidence. In my view, subjective observations and are profoundly important in the absence of more definitive evidence, especially when rendered by those with profound experience and tenure in a certain field. While my suggestions toward possible ceremonial or Masonic connections is admittedly tenuous, it was noted as an interesting possibility. However I am inclined to agree more with your well reasoned and explained thoughts. There is a lot to be said for 'sentimentality', which I think in situations forensically and investigatively, is referred to as a 'gut' feeling Good stuff Fernando!

13th July 2016, 07:04 PM	#10
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you Jim but, you know, esoterism is not my preferred beach . And when i mention sentimentalism, i am admiting that i am only pulling the ball towards my team. I have no solid base to form an honest feeling.