Identification Help Please

Alan62 · 23rd February 2006, 03:06 AM

I came across this today

Thanks for any Help

Alan62 · 23rd February 2006, 06:51 AM

Any Guess's
Please
If someone can just tell me what type of blade they think it is ,I can then go and try to find info on a type and maybe figure out something
Thanks

Henk · 23rd February 2006, 09:39 AM

Alan,

This looks like an african dagger to me. I'm not very familair with the african weapons, but Tim or Freddy certainly can help you out.

Yannis · 23rd February 2006, 10:28 AM

Scabbard is certainly a kaskara type but a crude one. I am sorry to say but the blade does not look fuctional either. In my opinion it is an african piece for those who travel for pleasure. The origin must be Egypt

Luc LEFEBVRE · 23rd February 2006, 01:48 PM

Same idea, Egypt for tourist, because ofthe handle, with a kind of short Sudanese scabbard.
Luc

Alan62 · 23rd February 2006, 01:49 PM

Yannis
Can you elaborate on the blade not looking functional?
Also The scabbard is longer than the blade and may possibly not even be the correct scabbard for this knife.

Also Luc
Can You elaborate on The handle

I am not questioning your oppinions I am trying to learn more about this,
Do they use real bone on tourist knives? The bone almost looks like ivory.I cannot get any pics that represent it well,but i will post an attempt

The Scabbard is 20.5 inches and the knife blade is 16 inches

Thanks for any additional help

Yannis · 23rd February 2006, 06:34 PM

Alan

The following answer is long and maybe totally wrong but this is what I see in this knife.

1. There are two categories of “tourist” pieces. In category A there are the massive productions. We are used to see these items in countries with raised tourism like Maroco. In category B there are the local hand made productions that they are in the same style of authentic weapons but they lack the aesthetic and funcional details of the old ones. This item belongs to category B. I will explain

2. The scabbard is kaskara type but it is very poor in the artwork. Old kaskaras have exelent leatherwork even if they are made from cheap material. Because leatherwork is easy to do. You don’t need expensive tools and you don’t have to be rich to decorate your weapon if you like it.

3. The choise of bone hilt is common, but bone has some more advantages: (a) it is cheap, practically free, (b) it is easy to work it, (c) it looks exotic – ethnographic in a tourist’s eye.

4. In real items the bone is boiled and worked to take a form and after this it is filed to be smooth. A hilt must be smooth, no? In this example it looks just carved. If is very possible after some time of use this hilt to broke in pieces and it is rather uncomfortable.

5. I cannot be sure about the quality of blade from the photo. What I see is a piece of metal that was not forged and it cannot be sharp or stay sarp after sort use. Plus this piece of metal was cut to fit on the hilt. Usualy the hilt is made after the blade not the opposite. But here the difficult part was to carve the hilt.

Finally figure looks like a Pharaoh. It is not what you expect from a muslim or paganist paysant to carve. So I still vote for Al Halili market in Cairo. A nice place to find little things like this for few dolars.

My advice: Smile for it. I know. My first fake was from there also!

Alan62 · 23rd February 2006, 07:34 PM

Thank you again.
Like I said I am just trying to learn.I got this one for "just a few dollars" so I am not real disapointed.
I appreciate the info

Dom · 24th February 2006, 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yannis

...snip... So I still vote for Al Halili market in Cairo. A nice place to find little things like this for few dolars. ..snip..

in accordance with what Yannis said, in Cairo Khan el Khalil bazar, no chance at all to found any more antic's

the Egyptian law is clear, all items, what ever they are, older than 80 years MUST BE deposited in museums

in the years 80's I saw; yataghan, persian or arab swords, but since that law (around 1985) concerning ALL antiquities the market is dry

and the customs at borders very vigilant, you may trust me, I know, I'm living as resident for part in that fantastic city

more chance to get good stuff in occidental auction rooms, than in local markets
I mean for Middle East, for Far East I dunno
Saudi - roughly empty & very expensive
UAE - few to dry
Libya - never found some thing, empty
Algeria - few to dry
this for the countries where I resided several years, from where a rather precise evaluation of the situation

à +

Dom

TVV · 28th February 2006, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yannis

So I still vote for Al Halili market in Cairo. A nice place to find little things like this for few dolars.

My advice: Smile for it. I know. My first fake was from there also!

Oh well, maybe we can form a club

. I was in Khan el Khalili in 2000, where I was stupid enough to pass on a kaskara and buy a modern chinese replica of a tibetan dagger. Now when I think of it, the kaskara would have most probably been confiscated at the airport, but still. I remember a few hadendoa daggers, though, so I think that if you have enough time to search or you know the right people, there will be interesting things in Khan El Khalili. But if you cannot get them out of the country, it is probably not worth it.
Then, in 2002, my wife (back then we were not married) went to Cairo and brought a "genuine bedouin dagger" as a present. I still keep both daggers out of purely sentimental reasons, and here are the pictures.

Valjhun · 1st March 2006, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom

Libya - never found some thing, empty

----

I was planning to visit Libiya in hope that I'd aquire some nice pieca, 'cos Lybia was never a touristic destination... Feel little dissapointed now

Dom · 2nd March 2006, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

----

I was planning to visit Libiya in hope that I'd aquire some nice pieca, 'cos Lybia was never a touristic destination... Feel little dissapointed now

and I confirm what I said, I visited Tripoli souk's not later than last april 2005, I bought

;
- 2 bowls in brass for magic purpose (Kuran sourate engraved inside) old

- 2 astrobales, copies imported from Syria (1 resold on e-Bay when I back in France)
but; daggers, swords ... NOT A SINGLE ONE

even from others countries, NOTHING AT ALL

but, please, pay a visit to Libya, beautiful country with fantastic archeologis places, inhabited by lovely peoples, and bewitching deserts

à +

Dom

23rd February 2006, 03:06 AM	#1
Alan62 Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 164	Identification Help Please I came across this today Thanks for any Help Last edited by Alan62; 23rd February 2006 at 06:52 AM.

23rd February 2006, 10:28 AM	#4
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Scabbard is certainly a kaskara type but a crude one. I am sorry to say but the blade does not look fuctional either. In my opinion it is an african piece for those who travel for pleasure. The origin must be Egypt Last edited by Yannis; 23rd February 2006 at 11:19 AM.

23rd February 2006, 01:49 PM	#6
Alan62 Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 164	Yannis Can you elaborate on the blade not looking functional? Also The scabbard is longer than the blade and may possibly not even be the correct scabbard for this knife. Also Luc Can You elaborate on The handle I am not questioning your oppinions I am trying to learn more about this, Do they use real bone on tourist knives? The bone almost looks like ivory.I cannot get any pics that represent it well,but i will post an attempt The Scabbard is 20.5 inches and the knife blade is 16 inches Thanks for any additional help Last edited by Alan62; 23rd February 2006 at 02:23 PM.

23rd February 2006, 07:34 PM	#8
Alan62 Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 164	Thank you again. Like I said I am just trying to learn.I got this one for "just a few dollars" so I am not real disapointed. I appreciate the info Last edited by Alan62; 24th February 2006 at 02:50 AM.

23rd February 2006, 06:51 AM	#2
Alan62 Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 164	Any Guess's Please If someone can just tell me what type of blade they think it is ,I can then go and try to find info on a type and maybe figure out something Thanks

23rd February 2006, 09:39 AM	#3
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Alan, This looks like an african dagger to me. I'm not very familair with the african weapons, but Tim or Freddy certainly can help you out.

23rd February 2006, 01:48 PM	#5
Luc LEFEBVRE Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: France Posts: 472	Same idea, Egypt for tourist, because ofthe handle, with a kind of short Sudanese scabbard. Luc

23rd February 2006, 06:34 PM	#7
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Alan The following answer is long and maybe totally wrong but this is what I see in this knife. 1. There are two categories of “tourist” pieces. In category A there are the massive productions. We are used to see these items in countries with raised tourism like Maroco. In category B there are the local hand made productions that they are in the same style of authentic weapons but they lack the aesthetic and funcional details of the old ones. This item belongs to category B. I will explain 2. The scabbard is kaskara type but it is very poor in the artwork. Old kaskaras have exelent leatherwork even if they are made from cheap material. Because leatherwork is easy to do. You don’t need expensive tools and you don’t have to be rich to decorate your weapon if you like it. 3. The choise of bone hilt is common, but bone has some more advantages: (a) it is cheap, practically free, (b) it is easy to work it, (c) it looks exotic – ethnographic in a tourist’s eye. 4. In real items the bone is boiled and worked to take a form and after this it is filed to be smooth. A hilt must be smooth, no? In this example it looks just carved. If is very possible after some time of use this hilt to broke in pieces and it is rather uncomfortable. 5. I cannot be sure about the quality of blade from the photo. What I see is a piece of metal that was not forged and it cannot be sharp or stay sarp after sort use. Plus this piece of metal was cut to fit on the hilt. Usualy the hilt is made after the blade not the opposite. But here the difficult part was to carve the hilt. Finally figure looks like a Pharaoh. It is not what you expect from a muslim or paganist paysant to carve. So I still vote for Al Halili market in Cairo. A nice place to find little things like this for few dolars. My advice: Smile for it. I know. My first fake was from there also!