Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
FAQ Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 9th October 2022, 05:57 AM   #1
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,625
Default Zanzibar Nimchas, a More In-Depth Discussion

Nimchas are among my most favorite swords. When I use nimcha in this thread, I am referring to a certain hilt type, and not the small, half-sized blades that the word originated from. Among nimchas, those from Oman, Zanzibar and the coast of East Africa fascinate me the most. To differentiate from Maghrebi nimchas, I will refer to these as Zanzibar nimchas, even if many of them were made and used in Oman and other areas under direct Omani control or Omani influence. I am also specifically excluding Yemeni nimchas - not because they are not related to the Omani ones, but for the purpose of setting some limits on the subject of the thread.

When studying these swords, I have always thought that some basic typology would be useful. As collectors, we love to put things in nice, neat categories, but beyond that, observing some differences and similarities between various types might also help enhance the collective knowledge. The typology below is based not only on the half a dozen Zanzibar nimchas in my collection, but also on a picture archive of approximately 60 swords I have gathered over time. Many examples come from this forum and other collections, others come from online museum catalogues, and some of course come from auction and dealer sites. Do not worry, I do not intend to inundate the thread with pictures taken from the internet but am just pointing out the sample size I used to come to some conclusions.

One can go about a typology in various ways, but the two that make the most sense would be based on blade type or based on the shape of the guard. I chose the latter, because I think it gives a better system compared to blades, which come in a huge variety of shapes, sizes, curvatures (for the curved ones), width, number of fullers, etc. This is not meant to be any kind of a final, authoritative typology - as new examples come up, I will probably revise my own thinking multiple times. This post has become much lengthier than I originally planned, so let's launch into the topic.

Type I - Guards with a D-Ring. These are all the Zanzibar nimchas with a D-shaped ring to the side. As a general rule, these all have hilts of dark horn (I know of at least one example with an ivory hilt, but it is a really rare exception). There are two sub-types within this type.

Type IA - Guards with a D-Ring where the D-Ring is filled. Those guards are the hardest to forge and all the ones I have seen are on nimchas of high quality, with nice blades, hilts and scabbards with fittings almost always made of silver.
Attached Images
    
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th October 2022, 06:03 AM   #2
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,625
Default

Type IB - Guards with a d-ring where the ring is not filled. Those are almost the same as IA but the rings are just that - rings. Some nimchas of this type are just as nice as the IA ones, while others are of lower quality. On my example, the ring is actually broken, perhaps showing a potential structural issue with Type IB compared to Type IA.
Attached Images
  
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th October 2022, 06:09 AM   #3
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,625
Default

Type II - No ring, thin quillons without decoration with the two inner quillons turned towards the blade, in a sort of crab claw manner. While Type I guards are mostly of a flat cross section, these guards tend to be a little rounder and thinner, and lack the flower designs of Type I. This type is more seldom encountered compared to Type I and Type III, but all the few examples I have seen have straight blades.
Attached Images
  
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th October 2022, 06:18 AM   #4
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,625
Default

Type III - No guard, the quillons' finials worked to resemble the heads of dragons (or other monsters/animals). You can see some very nice examples in Hales, and for a really low end of the spectrum example you can see mine below. Many of the hilts with this guard are made of ivory and many also tend to be decorated lavishly with gold or silver. The vast majority of this type have curved blades, though there is at least one such nimcha with a straight blade.

This sums it up for now, more or less. I am not sure what the differences in guards are based on - functionality, geography, ethnicity or status. All I can do is just observe these three major types and show them here. Study of period photographs and understanding of Omai art and symbolism might provide some clues, but this would be beyond my current abilities and knowledge.

Regards,
Teo
Attached Images
  
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th October 2022, 06:31 PM   #5
A.alnakkas
Member
 
A.alnakkas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Kuwait
Posts: 1,340
Default

Excellent post. There are other variants, and nimchas that can be classified as Zanzibari but with Yemeni edits. Will add photos soon once I am in the condition to take them.
A.alnakkas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th October 2022, 09:18 PM   #6
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,951
Default

Well noted remarks regarding the classifications of these swords as 'Zanzibar' as when discussing groups of swords which are similar context it helps distinguish variation. However as we agree, often regional classification with sword forms is pretty futile as there are no geographic boundaries to weapon forms.

As often discussed over the years, the 'Zanzibar' classification seems to have come from swords of this character used in Yemen, and believed to have been assembled in Zanzibar using trade blades which were as typical, from Germany.
It does seem Artzi was a proponent of this perspective as he had a group of about 40 of these which he had obtained from an arsenal or stores location in Yemen some time ago. I was able to get one of these, which I wanted as a variation from the familiar Maghrebi 'nimcha' (Moroccan sa'if). As far as I have known, the only other source to identify these 'ring guard' nimcha/sa'if has been Alain Jacob ("Les Armes Blanches du Monde Islamique", 1985)

As has been well known, Buttin (1933) shows a good number of these forms of the various types of hilts, but only terms them comprehensively as Arab sa'if.

As has been common with most references dealing with sword typology, as local preferences have most commonly had focus on the hilt, it has been deemed better as blades are most often of other sources and often may be changed out.

I have wanted to add congratulations on the remarkable and wonderful grouping of the Omani swords you have assembled on the other thread ,which include these in the scope and the great work at classifying these. I hope you will be putting something together for publishing as there is scant information on these available for collectors.

I very much appreciate the detail you added on identifying and comparing the Omani shamshir and defining details to note. Thank you!
Attached Images
  

Last edited by Jim McDougall; 11th October 2022 at 09:33 PM.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th October 2022, 01:08 AM   #7
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,625
Default

Jim, I always appreciate your comments. While it is true that ethnographic weapons do not have rigid geographic boundaries like standard military patterns would, there are enough differences to allow us to differentiate between regions, in this case Oman and Yemen.

The Yemeni nimcha you are showing is a great example of showing these differences. The guard is much simplified, compared to the more complex Omani guards. The knuckleguard is straight, while on Omani swords it is curved - some would call it S-shaped.

Another important difference is in the blades - your example is well marked, and probably is a European imported blade. While some of the Omani nimcha blades may be European in origin, their blades are almost never marked, and the few that are marked bear marks that are not European in origin. This is really puzzling when contrasted to Omani saifs and kattaras, which are extensively marked with European marks (or imitations thereof).

The question of how the hilt form travelled from the Mediterranean to the Indian Ocean is an interesting one and potentially a subject of another post or even thread.

I am however fairly confident in the Zanzibar attribution of many of these, as we have period photos of them (and Hales has a photo of these nimchas in the Comoros, which is as far South-East on the distribution range as it gets). I need to post the pictures I have and then we can discuss what we see in them.

Teo
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th October 2022, 01:48 AM   #8
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,951
Default

Point taken Teo, as noted the forms themselves do not have rigid geographic boundaries, but indeed the decorative motif and in degree certain nuances in the element designs can distinguish certain regions, as you have shown.

Thank you for the kind words on my example. These markings do seem German but do not match exactly with known examples of makers in the compendiums. It has been suggested many times that German shops may have been producing 'blanks' in blades which were then stamped with interpretations of these marks at entrepots receiving them.

I think the diffusion of this general hilt form has been a well traveled conundrum for a very long time, that will be some thread!
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th October 2022, 06:53 AM   #9
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,625
Default

Here are some pictures of people wearing Zanzibar nimchas that we can look at, taken straight from the period photos thread.

The first one is a eunuch in Zanzibar, taken in 1931 - a little late, but interesting to see him wear a type III nimcha.

The second one is of a Swahili man called Bwana Heri and his sons. Since it has a label in German, we know it was taken somewhere in Tanganyika between 1885 and WWI. He has a type III nimcha and an Omani dagger, while his sons have no swords and just the newer, Saidi daggers.

The last one is of Sultan Said Ali ben Said Omar of Anjouan Island in the Comoros. He ruled at the end of the 19th century, over all the Comoros just as the French colonized and annexed the islands. While he has a shamshir of the Omani type, the person seated to his left as well as the two men seated to his right wear nimchas. Two of them are type III, while the gentleman seated on the far right has a type I (we can clearly see the ring). While the Comoros were never formally part of the Omani Empire, the men wear Omani Saidi daggers, showing the strong Oman influence on dress and weapons. What are these men and how are they related to the Sultan I do not know - maybe senior bodyguards or some officials.

In Hales the nimchas are worn by the grand vizier's bodyguards. Overall, it would appear that these swords were either worn by the bodyguards of very important people or by older, more senior individuals. All the 4 pictures we have (I am counting the photograph in Hales on p. 237) are taken in Africa, one in Zanzibar, one somewhere in Tanganyika along the coast and 2 in the Comoros. None in Oman itself, so I am not even sure if this sword type was popular in Oman at all.

Teo
Attached Images
   
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th October 2022, 07:48 PM   #10
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,951
Default

These are great images Teo!!!
The Comoros, the old pirate hangout next to Madagascar in earlier times of Captain Kidd.

With the notable 'hand nock' in the grips of these, the influences went to Spanish colonial swords, these from 18th c. into 19th in Caribbean and South Central America..the influence probably from Spanish colonies in Morocco.
Attached Images
      
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2022, 05:08 PM   #11
Nihl
Member
 
Nihl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 90
Default

I’m late in replying to another thread, but I feel I must celebrate the connections you’ve shown here with your images Jim! This is all out of my area of expertise, so I don’t know if this evolution of hilts from karabela to nimcha to colonial sword is actually well known, but it’s the first time I’m hearing of it, and I love it! I always found the “finger hook” at the end of nimchas and so-called berber sabers to be rather peculiar, but I never thought of connecting the two, nor that the former could be an evolution of the more subtle protrusion found on karabela pommels. In general I believe most sabers have this kind of “pommel hook” to catch the hand and prevent it from slipping off while the sword is being swung, and as such I always saw it as being a ubiquitous design feature that just kind of exists without external influences. This is the first time I’ve seen any real connection between grips of different swords, however, so hats off to you Jim (or whoever might have first seen this connection)!
Nihl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2022, 06:32 PM   #12
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,951
Default

Thank you very much Nihl! I am certain I am by far not the first to notice this peculiar similarity, which is of course a feature which has numerous other connections. In this case, it is something that became notably apparent to me in my research on Spanish colonial swords, a not particularly well traveled road.

Often we can find certain features in ethnographic weapons which extend to key European influences, especially those of the Italian city states, whose trade influenced the local weaponry in regions they frequented. The nimsha (a term loosely used to describe various Arab sabers but typically regarding short bladed cutlass types) was widely distributed though the Mediterranean, via the Italian conduit.

It is interesting to look into North African edged weapons, particularly in the Maghreb, where such influences prevail, for example the 'peacock' type lunette on many koummya daggers, which are actually a form of khanjhar (Pant, 1980). These pommels are believed to derive from the Italian 'cinqueda', a connection which is of course deemed plausible through visible comparison, cannot be empirically proven, but the idea is compelling.

The Moroccan dagger, janwi, is termed so from the many edged weapons entering these regions from Genoa in that trade. I am sure there are other examples of Italian influences that can be described beyond the scope here.
These strong influences were the very reason I bought the important volume (expensive even back when I got it) "Armi Bianchi Italienne" by Boccia & Coelho. While in Italian, the amazing photos and silhouette plates of general forms reveals almost astounding comparisons with more ethnographic edged weapon forms than can be imagined. It is I think essential.

Best regards
Jim
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd June 2023, 08:27 AM   #13
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,625
Default

One of the mysteries of the Omani/East African nimchas is the general lack of markings. I have seen a few with marks, but they are still less than 10% of the total I have seen. On top of that, almost always the rare marks you find on them are not European or in imitation of European marks.

This is even more puzzling when compared to the other 19th century swords that were used alongside the nimchas - the kattaras and the guardless, conical hilt saifs. These other swords are almost always extensively marked and the marks tend to be European or copies thereof.

It appears that either the blades were kept unmarked or any marks were ground out on purpose. Why, I have no idea. Interestingly, this seems to be true of only Oman, Zanzibar and the Comoros, because the Yemeni versions tend to have all kinds of imported blades with their markings.
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th January 2024, 10:21 PM   #14
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,625
Default

I was browsing Google images today and came across a very interesting sword, which only deepens the mystery of nimcha hilts for me. It was sold at a Bonham's auction in 2015, and described as 19th century South Indian sword. I believe it is earlier than that, and the hilt and guard have many interesting features.

Obviously, the lion pommel and the grip decorations are beautiful and perhaps correctly attributed to India, as they are unlike anything found either in Oman/Zanzibar or the Maghreb. Members with better knowledge of Indian arms may be able to identify the patterns and confirm where they are from.

But the guard is similar to BOTH Zanzibari and Maghrebi nimchas. Take a look at the D-ring - it has a four-petal flower in the center. This is pretty much the same flower from which the flowers on Zanzibari rings are derived, illustrated with a picture of one of mine.

But then look at the quillons - their ends are shaped as multi-faceted flower buds. This is typical of early Algerian nimchas, like one I have with a brass guard.

The blade is a broadsword blade with a single short fuller and no markings. Interestingly, Zanzibari blades are almost always unmarked, especially the straight ones.

So, what to make of this sword? If the lion pommel and grip are Indian, it would be closer geographically to the Zanzibari and East African nimchas. But it also exhibits Algerian guard traits, so could it be derived from some old ancestor of both of these, brough by the Ottomans to the Indian Ocean?
Attached Images
    
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th January 2024, 06:44 AM   #15
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,951
Default

The appearance of this sword seems to recall the Sinhalese kastane as well, mindful of Tony North's article (1975). The nuanced influences seen in the elements in these compared swords is remarkable, and reflects the trade conduits that diffused these.
This thread was amazing ! and so glad to see it back. Teodor you have really kept after these sword similarities and given us great perspectives on them, thank you!
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th January 2024, 01:30 AM   #16
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,625
Default

Jim, thank you for your support. If you or anyone else have any thoughts on the lion hilted nimcha and where the lion may be from, I am very interested to learn what you think.

The similarities with kastane hilts are certainly there, and Eric Claude has even mentioned that theory in his recent book. There is actually one more, old nimcha hilt with a figural hilt. It is number 1005 in Buttin, and he classifies it as an Arab sword from the 16-17th centuries. The dating is subject to debate, but it is interesting that Buttin has placed it in plate XXX, among other Arab arms and armor and next to Zanzibari nimchas, and not on the previous plate next to Maghrebi ones. The pommel on this one looks more like a monster, perhaps Makara from the Hindu mythology. The quillon finials are also in the shape of monsters.

Those are the figural nimcha hilts I know of, but if I am missing any, please feel free to add them here.
Attached Images
 
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th January 2024, 02:46 AM   #17
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
Default

This is an engaging look at the type.

I have little to offer other than visual insights that are accessible by all.

This one below may offer further direction for research on trade, interaction, colonisation etc.

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/24327
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th January 2024, 05:37 AM   #18
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,625
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent View Post
This is an engaging look at the type.

I have little to offer other than visual insights that are accessible by all.

This one below may offer further direction for research on trade, interaction, colonisation etc.

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/24327
The one in the Met is an early to mid 17th century Algerian nimcha. There is a similar one in the Rijksmuseum that was captured as a trophy by Michiel de Ruyter in 1655, which allows us to date these with a good degree of certainty.

Unfortunately, when it comes to the nimchas from Zanzibar, there really are not any reliably dated early examples. It would have been nice if some Portuguese admiral collected some from a specific battle, but sadly I am not aware of any.
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2024, 01:41 AM   #19
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,951
Default

This is kind of a tough one Teo, but I am inclined to agree, this could be into late 18th c. perhaps into mid. The blade reminds me of the blades on Omani sa'if (generally called kattara in modern parlance).
I think this well might be Indian, and there are of course striking nuances resembling the Sinhalese kastane, as noted.

The 'lion head' does seem more toward the Hindu mythical creatures in the pantheon, but the makara and yali are zoomorphically combined forms, with the makara more reptilian or aquatic and though the yali has elements of the lion, the elephant features lean away from this lionhead.

The ring guard which has for some time (since about '80s) been regarded as a 'Zanzibari' trait cannot actually be specifically assigned to preponderance there. As can be seen, a wide scope of sword types prevailed there including shamshirs, 'kattara' and others. In my view the 'Zanzibar' attribution to the ring guard versions of the Arab sa'if (commonly termed nimcha) may have come about when a volume of swords of the ring guard type found in an arsenal in Yemen were said to have been fabricated in Zanzibar.

The ring guard, like numerous weapons in the Arab sphere, have distinct influences from Italian weapons, many early forms carried via the conduit of trade networks.

I was once told the 'nimcha' or sa'if is not a North African form, but Arab and with of course a great volume of these becoming well known in Algeria and Morocco. Buttin of course labels these Arab sa'if with some Moroccan and Algerian sub attribution. I could not find any of these (and with ring guards) with any Zanzibar attribution (Buttin, 1933).

Getting to this unusual example in the OP, it seems to reflect various elements of the Arabian trade sphere, from Ceylon to India, to Arabia (Yemen, Hadhramaut) and with the familiar guard system of the nimcha, kastane, etc. (North, 1975).

The repousse? silver work seems mindful of the work on Arabian (Hadhramaut) swords that were made for their mercenary forces in Hyderabad. The ring guard of course seems a feature also popular in Yemen, though odd with the nimcha style guard system.
Then we have the Omani style blade well known in Zanzibar, and the ring guard as noted regarded as Zanzibari.

Truly a conundrum, but not surprising given the complexity of these trade spheres.
Attached Images
 
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2024, 05:48 PM   #20
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,625
Default

Jim, good point about Indian production meant for Arab mercenaries in Hyderabad. This could be yet another example of that connection.

You are correct that the ring guard is not a key feature that distinguishes between Oman/Zanzibar nimchas and those from the Maghreb. As discussed earlier in the this thread, there are plenty of examples from Oman/Zanzibar and the Comoros without a ring guard. There are also examples from the Maghreb with the ring guard. The shape of the knuckle guard and the tilt of the pommel are usually a better indicator of geographic origin.

The sword with the lion head pommel does not look to me as coming from the Mediterranean, and the Indian attribution has some merits, so it is more likely to be connected to Oman/Zanzibar/Comoros examples, but it is intriguing that the quillon finials are like those on Algerian nimchas. The only way for me to explain this feature is through an Ottoman connection. In the 16th century, when the Ottoman privateers were at their height in the Mediterranean, Ottoman naval power in the Arab sea also peaked, with notable Ottoman involvement all the way along the Indian coast. In fact, the battle at Diu preceded the siege of Malta and the battle at Lepanto by more than half a century.

The quillon block, quillons and ring guard are very likely to be derived from Italian (or Portuguese or Spanish) swords, but the grip and the pommel probably came from the East. This kind of fusion probably does not happen without the Ottomans, but how exactly it occurred is a mystery to me.
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2024, 06:40 PM   #21
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,951
Default

Teo,
The complexity of these trade networks and the ever volatile conflicts between national and ethnic entities were key dynamics in the diffusion of these familiar elements of varying sword forms make it difficult, at best, to solve most of these conundrums.

All we can do is speculate with reasonable consideration (ratiocination) to try to find viable identifications or classifications on these anomalies.

By analogy, I have always been fascinated with ethnography and various ethnic and cultural characteristics of nationalities (sort of inherent working in international airports in my career). I would often guess where someone was from in conversation, and one lady who was clearly Indian, I guessed she was from Gujerat. She smiled and said, 'no, Im from Kenya'. Seeing I was taken aback, she then added.......many Indian people went to Africa to work.....my PARENTS were from Gujerat!!!

So it is with these weapons.

The inherent influences of the elements of Italian and Portuguese swords had entered these spheres long before the period of most of these weapons we discuss, so its difficult to place or date based on these characteristics. There were cases of course of various components produced in one location, then exported to others to be used in assembly of locally favored sword types.
In India, the tulwar is a good example, it seems a high percentage of these hilts were produced in the numerous centers in Rajasthan. Many went to other locations for decoration and mounting using blades from other areas or trade blades....much as the manner of cutlers assembling swords in other countries.

As mentioned, the ring guard feature, as seen in Buttin, is not seen as any sort of locally distinguishing feature on these swords of the Arab sphere, simply regarded as sa'if. As you say, the rather vast conduit of the Ottoman Empire was most assuredly the dynamic that carried much of this diffusion, but alongside the equally dynamic Arab trade.

It has seemed to me, as I learned years ago in research along with Peter Hudson (Ibrahiim al Balooshi) Zanzibar was a profound 'X factor' in this Arab trade sphere,and the 'ringed guard' sa'if were simply among the numerous other forms there. Among the anomalies studied were the so called 'Zanzibar' swords.........which were termed that first by Demmin (1877), then that carried forth by Burton (1884)........but as noted by Buttin (1933) these were in fact s'boula of Morocco. They were simply deemed Zanzibari by having been seen in that context.

There I go again, rambling away. Its just that I find this topic really exciting and fascinating, and you have for as many years as I can recall, deeply studied these areas, so I cannot resist sharing perspective.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.