Moro keris without clamps

paolo · 28th December 2006, 09:16 AM

Hello all,
I bought times ago this Moro keris. It has no clamp, the ivory ferrule looks original and hasn't any kind of groove for them. Your opinion is needed.
I would also know its origin.
Thank You in advance
Paolo

Flavio · 28th December 2006, 12:05 PM

Hi Paolo, i don't know about the handle (for sure the scabbard seems recent), but the blade it's a very beauty!! For sure other members will tell you more!

CharlesS · 28th December 2006, 01:14 PM

Beautiful, intersting, blade. The hilt pommel appears original, but the ferrule does not seem to be of the same quality...perhaps bone?

There is, indeed, a place for the baca baca, but it appears to have been ground down.

The hilt has certainly been rewrapped, I think fairly recently.

Again, a lovely blade, but the rest may have been worked up to create an attractive, but composite piece. Even so, there is also a possibility that it was reworked in this manner to create an attractive, later, presentation piece.

David · 28th December 2006, 02:09 PM

Does anyone else think that this blade might be of Indonesian origin?
Beautiful BTW.

kai · 28th December 2006, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Does anyone else think that this blade might be of Indonesian origin?

I'm with David - I'm also convinced that the blade was crafted in Indonesia or Malaysia (and most likely all fittings, too). Looks like a piece which Adni could have sold...

Paolo, are those pics from Artzi?

I don't think the blade was ever supposed to be fitted with an Asang-asang - the file work in that area resembles more the usual keris style and is one of the reasons why I think a keris smith made this blade. It also seems to have regular pamor. The latter seems to be invariably present on modern reproductions by Maduranese smiths. However, this piece looks nicer than all those "Madura Kris" I've seen and I'd be tempted to believe this is a genuine (vintage?) Malay/Straits piece with new(er) quality fittings. Maybe our forumites from Singapore can chime in?

Regards,
Kai

paolo · 28th December 2006, 04:05 PM

I don't bought it by Adni. The seller was Asoka arts in England. I took the pics.
Paolo

paolo · 28th December 2006, 04:08 PM

You seems interested to the blade, so I send two other pics, not too good, of the pamor.
Regards
Paolo

Alam Shah · 28th December 2006, 05:12 PM

Hi Paolo,
From the fittings, looks like a Malay Sundang of Peninsular Malaysia.

It is common to find Malay Sundang without the clamps.

Here is one example. Note the difference in blade material. The fittings are similar.
http://www.geocities.com/keris4u/ker...elayu_luk5.htm

paolo · 28th December 2006, 07:04 PM

How old do you think the keris might be ?
Regards
Paolo

CharlesS · 28th December 2006, 07:42 PM

The asthetics of the blade certainly say Indonesian, but the length and girth do not. The Malay attribution makes more sense. In the other (Malay)example given via link, I think we could also agree that there have been elements of the hilt that have been reworked, as it does not match in age, or fit, the blade and Adni notes this in his description(late 20th Cent.). The scabbard seems virtually identical in style to the one presented, but is newer.

I think it is a composite piece, but of quality parts.

I would like to know more about the very interesting blade.

David · 28th December 2006, 08:04 PM

Yes i would agree that it is more correctly Malay. I mistakenly said Indo just to seperate it from Moro, but Malay would prpbably be more specifically correct. I also think the hilt and the sheath were Malay crafted and that this piece was never intended to have baca-baca. I don't see any obvious evidence of any part of the blade being ground down as Charles suggests. I am not sure what you mean exactly by composite piece in this case. If you mean that the dress was not original to the blade, that is probably so. But i think it is in keeping with the culture of the blade. As we all know, dress is often changed on keris. But when i think composite i think of more inappropriate and incompatable combinations.

Battara · 29th December 2006, 01:03 AM

So far I agree with everyone else. The first thing that went through my mind was Malay. The scabbard is Malaysian without a doubt.

paolo · 31st December 2006, 11:38 AM

It seems to me that most of you agree on a Malay sundang blade, assembled with newer Malayan dress and a recent sheat (Malayan too). Now I wish know your opinion if was better to leave on the keris how it is now, or to save only the blade (that seems to be the better thing of the keris). Last question : might you suggest an age for the blade?
Regards and above all Happy New Year to everyone

Alam Shah · 31st December 2006, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paolo

It seems to me that most of you agree on a Malay sundang blade, assembled with newer Malayan dress and a recent sheat (Malayan too). Now I wish know your opinion if was better to leave on the keris how it is now, or to save only the blade (that seems to be the better thing of the keris). Last question : might you suggest an age for the blade?

The ensemble is proper. Best to leave it the way it is now.

My guess would be, probably 20th century for the blade and later for the hilt and sheath. A nice find, congratulations. Should you decide not to keep it, do let me know.

kai · 31st December 2006, 05:24 PM

Hello Paolo,

Please leave it as is - IMHO it wouldn't make any sense to dress this Malay blade in Moro fittings. I also think this is a really nice piece - if Alam Shah doesn't grab it, send me a PM, too...

Perhaps Adni could comment on dating Malay kris? I'd guess at 1st half of 20th century with possibly later fittings. However, if this happens to be a presentation piece for a British officer which was well kept in a collection outside SE Asia, the blade could be older (and/or fittings possibly original).

Regards,
Kai

David · 31st December 2006, 05:33 PM

I absolutely agree, Paolo, i wouldn't change a thing. This is both a beautiful and correct ensemble and you are lucky to own it....but you could but me third on that list if you decide not to keep it.

CharlesS · 1st January 2007, 05:05 PM

By "composite" I simply mean all the pieces were likely not "born together"....nothing more.

28th December 2006, 09:16 AM	#1
paolo Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 173	Moro keris without clamps Hello all, I bought times ago this Moro keris. It has no clamp, the ivory ferrule looks original and hasn't any kind of groove for them. Your opinion is needed. I would also know its origin. Thank You in advance Paolo Attached Images

28th December 2006, 04:08 PM	#7
paolo Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 173	You seems interested to the blade, so I send two other pics, not too good, of the pamor. Regards Paolo Attached Images

28th December 2006, 12:05 PM	#2
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hi Paolo, i don't know about the handle (for sure the scabbard seems recent), but the blade it's a very beauty!! For sure other members will tell you more!

28th December 2006, 01:14 PM	#3
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,855	Beautiful, intersting, blade. The hilt pommel appears original, but the ferrule does not seem to be of the same quality...perhaps bone? There is, indeed, a place for the baca baca, but it appears to have been ground down. The hilt has certainly been rewrapped, I think fairly recently. Again, a lovely blade, but the rest may have been worked up to create an attractive, but composite piece. Even so, there is also a possibility that it was reworked in this manner to create an attractive, later, presentation piece.

28th December 2006, 02:09 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,103	Does anyone else think that this blade might be of Indonesian origin? Beautiful BTW.

28th December 2006, 04:05 PM	#6
paolo Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 173	I don't bought it by Adni. The seller was Asoka arts in England. I took the pics. Paolo

28th December 2006, 05:12 PM	#8
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Hi Paolo, From the fittings, looks like a Malay Sundang of Peninsular Malaysia. It is common to find Malay Sundang without the clamps. Here is one example. Note the difference in blade material. The fittings are similar. http://www.geocities.com/keris4u/ker...elayu_luk5.htm

28th December 2006, 07:04 PM	#9
paolo Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 173	How old do you think the keris might be ? Regards Paolo

28th December 2006, 07:42 PM	#10
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,855	The asthetics of the blade certainly say Indonesian, but the length and girth do not. The Malay attribution makes more sense. In the other (Malay)example given via link, I think we could also agree that there have been elements of the hilt that have been reworked, as it does not match in age, or fit, the blade and Adni notes this in his description(late 20th Cent.). The scabbard seems virtually identical in style to the one presented, but is newer. I think it is a composite piece, but of quality parts. I would like to know more about the very interesting blade.

28th December 2006, 08:04 PM	#11
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,103	Yes i would agree that it is more correctly Malay. I mistakenly said Indo just to seperate it from Moro, but Malay would prpbably be more specifically correct. I also think the hilt and the sheath were Malay crafted and that this piece was never intended to have baca-baca. I don't see any obvious evidence of any part of the blade being ground down as Charles suggests. I am not sure what you mean exactly by composite piece in this case. If you mean that the dress was not original to the blade, that is probably so. But i think it is in keeping with the culture of the blade. As we all know, dress is often changed on keris. But when i think composite i think of more inappropriate and incompatable combinations.

29th December 2006, 01:03 AM	#12
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,200	So far I agree with everyone else. The first thing that went through my mind was Malay. The scabbard is Malaysian without a doubt.

31st December 2006, 11:38 AM	#13
paolo Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 173	It seems to me that most of you agree on a Malay sundang blade, assembled with newer Malayan dress and a recent sheat (Malayan too). Now I wish know your opinion if was better to leave on the keris how it is now, or to save only the blade (that seems to be the better thing of the keris). Last question : might you suggest an age for the blade? Regards and above all Happy New Year to everyone

31st December 2006, 05:24 PM	#15
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,252	Hello Paolo, Please leave it as is - IMHO it wouldn't make any sense to dress this Malay blade in Moro fittings. I also think this is a really nice piece - if Alam Shah doesn't grab it, send me a PM, too... Perhaps Adni could comment on dating Malay kris? I'd guess at 1st half of 20th century with possibly later fittings. However, if this happens to be a presentation piece for a British officer which was well kept in a collection outside SE Asia, the blade could be older (and/or fittings possibly original). Regards, Kai

31st December 2006, 05:33 PM	#16
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,103	I absolutely agree, Paolo, i wouldn't change a thing. This is both a beautiful and correct ensemble and you are lucky to own it....but you could but me third on that list if you decide not to keep it.

1st January 2007, 05:05 PM	#17
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,855	By "composite" I simply mean all the pieces were likely not "born together"....nothing more.