Austro-Hungarian cavalry sword M1869

[Victrix]

I recently acquired an Austro-Hungarian Imperial and Royal (k.k.) cavalry sabre M1869 for officers. It’s a nickelplated version with scabbard. There’s a fuller down one side of the 83.5cm long blade with a false edge. The 2.8cm wide forte is marked ”L. Zeitler Wien VIII”. The edges have not been sharpened, so I think it might be a parade version/staff officer’s sword? The symmetric hand guard (8.2cm wide at the grip) is decorated with floral openwork and the Habsburg double-headed eagle. The grip is covered in grey fish skin bound with silver wire. The pommel button is decorated with the owner’s monogram, which looks like a S and a H. The sword has a snug fit in the scabbard with no rattle.

As the dimensions are not that impressive, I wonder if there’s a battle version of this sword? How do I best care for the nickel plated surfaces; is it OK to wipe down the surfaces with a damp sponge, rub dry with a soft cloth, and then apply a layer of renaissance wax? Not sure it’s a good idea to apply mineral oil to the steel which I usually do with older swords (not nickelplated). Comments welcomed.

[Jim McDougall]

Austro Hungarian stuff gets confusing because the weapons are rather interpolated, and Austrian patterns seem to prevail for most as far as military. Wagner "Cut and Thrust Weapons", Prague ,1967 is the best source for these kinds of weapons. It seems this reference is not widely held here, though it does appear to be available. I got my copy (which is huge, not easily managed in this RV!) in about 1969, and have about worn it out!

The first is the M1869 cavalry troopers saber (p.356, pl. 54).

The second M1877, (p.358., pl.56) which is marked Joh. Zelinka Wien
and is described as 'leichter gattung' (=lighter edition).

It seems these sabers were used in the Austro-Hungarian cavalry which of course remained active through WWI. There were occasions too of their being mounted police, so these swords were certainly actively worn, at least the troopers versions.
The officers of course had more dress type sabers, and the lighter version M1877 was probably a parade weapon as well with lighter blade.

Resources cited:
"Adjustierungs und Ausrustungsvor schrift fur das K.K. Heer"
-Vienna, 1878 p.185
"Instruktransbuchfur die Einjahrig Freiwillen",
-Vienna, 1912 Vol.II, pl. X\
These are presumably both by Dolleczek.

These names listed at the forte are not makers, but outfitter/cutler/suppliers in Vienna, so do not appear in the listings for makers.

[Victrix]

Hi Jim,

Many thanks for your comments. This is the officers’ version of the M1869 and a private purchase. The cavalry trooper’s sabre has a 3.6cm wide blade and a simpler guard perforated with holes (made it lighter). What’s common for both versions are the elegant double slits for the wrist cord with tassel. The officer version has a more elaborate decorated guard, sometimes with an added optional St.George or the Habsburg eagle as in this case. The dimensions of the officers’ sabres vary based on the preferences of the owners, and whether they were intended for dress wear or field service. This sabre for dress wear was manufactured by Ludwig Zeitler Wien VIII, who also made daggers and bayonets (est. in 1840?).

The photo below shows Austro-Hungarian hussars in Budapest.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Victrix

... What’s common for both versions are the elegant double slits for the wrist cord with tassel. ...

I have an Austrian artillery officer's sabre with the double slits in the upper portion of the narrow-ish guard. I've always been told they were for a sword knot. I also have a Swiss officer's sword with a highly decorated bowl guard that also has the Austrian style double slit. I have however never seen any Austrian or Swiss officers in illustrations/photos with a sword knot/portapee through those slits. I must assume they are there for another purpose.

The Austrian Artillery sword has a blade forte with a lot of floral engraving for about 6 inches, otherwise like the above one and is also plated and unsharpened, tho the edge is a dull 1mm or less and I would not want to be hit with it. The Swiss one is a rather nice pipe-backed and quill pointed patinated steel blade with a field sharp edge.

[Jim McDougall]

[QUOTE=Victrix;266599]Hi Jim,

Many thanks for your comments. This is the officers’ version of the M1869 and a private purchase. The cavalry trooper’s sabre has a 3.6cm wide blade and a simpler guard perforated with holes (made it lighter). What’s common for both versions are the elegant double slits for the wrist cord with tassel. The officer version has a more elaborate decorated guard, sometimes with an added optional St.George or the Habsburg eagle as in this case. The dimensions of the officers’ sabres vary based on the preferences of the owners, and whether they were intended for dress wear or field service. This sabre for dress wear was manufactured by Ludwig Zeitler Wien VIII, who also made daggers and bayonets (est. in 1840?).










Hi Victrix,

I'm glad I could offer these references. I have always thought these Austro-Hungarian swords were pretty intriguing, and always liked the troopers versions for their very 'business like' look. It seems strange in a way that cavalry and swords were used well into the 20th century.....and cavalry was still an integral battle order component despite machine guns etc.

The stories of Polish cavalry charging German tanks in WWII was of course German propaganda, but these forces were vital in many functions. I knew a man whose father was in the Polish cavalry then, and he always spoke of his fathers saber, which to him as a child, was huge.

I am not sure about those slits, and I always thought they were for sword knots.

[kronckew]

Oops! Forget to add this picture of an Austrian officer's sword with it's knot.
p.s.- The Poles used cavalry but left their lances home for parades. Not being fools, they usually parked their horses and fought on foot with machine guns and rifles. They did do a sabre charge on a German encampment and were very effective, coming out the other side they heard armoured vehicles approaching and wisely left.
The Germans widely used horse for transport of personnel and supplies, wounded, etc.. They were forbidden to film them in action tho, as hitler wanted everyone on the allies side to think they were all fully mechanized. They actually used almost twice the number of horses they'd used in WW1. especially when they started running out of gasoline and diesel. The Italian Cavalry also made a number of successful cavalry charges against the Russians.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by kronckew

… I have however never seen any Austrian or Swiss officers in illustrations/photos with a sword knot/portapee through those slits. I must assume they are there for another purpose…

The slits are for the wrist cord/portapee. Looks rather smart in my opinion. It’s not easy to see properly, but it seems most of the soldiers in the photos wear the cord in the prescribed manner.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Victrix,

I'm glad I could offer these references. I have always thought these Austro-Hungarian swords were pretty intriguing, and always liked the troopers versions for their very 'business like' look. It seems strange in a way that cavalry and swords were used well into the 20th century.....and cavalry was still an integral battle order component despite machine guns etc.

The stories of Polish cavalry charging German tanks in WWII was of course German propaganda, but these forces were vital in many functions. I knew a man whose father was in the Polish cavalry then, and he always spoke of his fathers saber, which to him as a child, was huge.

I am not sure about those slits, and I always thought they were for sword knots.

Jim, I share your sentiment completely, and like the wider and more businesslike blades. But in this particular case I fell for the eagle decoration on the guard. I believe Austro-Hungarian cavalry units were used more on the Eastern front in WWI against Russia. The casualty rates were substantial so efforts were made to make uniforms and horses less conspicuous, so to provide less clear targets. Kaiser Franz Joseph was said to dislike tanks because they frightened the cavalry horses!

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Victrix

The slits are for the wrist cord/portapee. Looks rather smart in my opinion. It’s not easy to see properly, but it seems most of the soldiers in the photos wear the cord in the prescribed manner.

OK, thanks for the info, I like it when I can learn something new each day. I stand corrected & have adjusted my knots to suit.

[Victrix]

Kronckew, that looks extremely smart! Now I need to figure out where to get hold of a k.k portepee to complete the look, following your example. I will make another washer for the sword as well, from a piece of red felt I have lying around already.

[kronckew]

Me too. I've got a piece of red wool felt somewhere and some black leather. I've made red felt only sword washers, and some red felt fabric-glued to black leather where I was replacing an existing one. It had faded badly and had dried out crumbled leather. Can't seem to find anyone that actually makes them for sale. They help absorb impact when seating the sword, and keep out the weather, I put a dab of sheep lanolin on the felt. Very useful stuff. These two swords need washers, may make some soon. I've made just leather ones for a sword or two also. A proper washer completes the sword, as does an appropriate sword belt, frog, or baldric.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Jim, I share your sentiment completely, and like the wider and more businesslike blades. But in this particular case I fell for the eagle decoration on the guard. I believe Austro-Hungarian cavalry units were used more on the Eastern front in WWI against Russia. The casualty rates were substantial so efforts were made to make uniforms and horses less conspicuous, so to provide less clear targets. Kaiser Franz Joseph was said to dislike tanks because they frightened the cavalry horses!

These are outstanding swords, and it seems few of the general public realize just how far into the 20th century the use of the sword and cavalry continued. While our line of demarcation for the study of weapons here is set at 1900, many of these 19th century patterns as well as actual examples carried , as we see, even up to WWII.

I once had the opportunity to interview a British Brigadier who had led one of the last mounted cavalry charges in Khyber regions in 1931. I was able to handle the M1912 officers sword he carried, and he showed me numerous weapons he captured. The unit was Bengal Lancers so the lance was of course used also.

The lances used by German uhlans in WWI were steel and 12ft. long. In considering the terrain in most of the battle areas, it is easy to understand that horses were most effective in most cases.

[kronckew]

The last US horse mounted charge into a full scale battle with modern weaponry against opponents with tanks was not very long ago indeed. October 2001 saw an Afghan mounted force charge a much larger Taliban force dug in and armed with tanks and artillery, accompanied by 6 US Army Special forces. The Afghani losses were heavy but they completely demoralized the Taliban who surrendered in droves. A few US B-52's 'helped' by providing close air support, only missing the Taliban by a few miles.

I doubt there will ever be a 'last' charge.


p.s.- not more than a few days ago, a US Armed and mounted unit charged a group of people invading the USA and captured many as they fled from the horses.

[Victrix]

Advance Merry Christmas to you all!

P.S. The strap fits through the slits perfectly so there is no doubt about the function of those.

[Victrix]

Now complete with new homemade washer made from red felt material. The sword already has a washer made from brown leather. Not sure if the leather washer is original/very old.