Lake-findings: Dagger, blade and cutlery

AHorsa · 17th March 2016, 07:50 PM

Dear All,

I got this estate of an diver. Should be lake findings. The most interesting piece in my eyes is the small (lefthand?-) dagger (~30cm overall length). Please see the comparison to another dagger from the 16th century and a lighter. Is it possible that it was made for kids? The single dagger blade is also a very fine peace. Is it around 1600?
Would be great to get more information about all the pieces, especially the dagger and blade, but also the age of the cutlery would be interesting.

Kinf regards
Andreas

AHorsa · 17th March 2016, 10:21 PM

Here is a painting from the early 17th cent. which shows a boy wearing a small dagger. I assume it´s a piece like this...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/97048587@N04/16737228865

And here is the big brother (from the blade) of the tiny dagger, also with a similar marking...

http://www.hermann-historica-archiv....db=kat59_a.txt

Cerjak · 18th March 2016, 09:28 AM

very interesting dagger ,I like to see the remainder turks head knot on the tang.
Very nice find!
Best
Cerjak

Cerjak · 18th March 2016, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AHorsa

Dear All,

I got this estate of an diver. Should be lake findings. The most interesting piece in my eyes is the small (lefthand?-) dagger (~30cm overall length). Please see the comparison to another dagger from the 16th century and a lighter. Is it possible that it was made for kids? The single dagger blade is also a very fine peace. Is it around 1600?
Would be great to get more information about all the pieces, especially the dagger and blade, but also the age of the cutlery would be interesting.

Kinf regards
Andreas

" Is it possible that it was made for kids?"
26 cm is a correct size for a stylet so for me not for a boy.
Please see pictures

best

Cerjak

ulfberth · 18th March 2016, 05:43 PM

Hi Andreas,

very nice and interesting find, the small dagger is a misere corde and was often worn under clothing.
It was used for giving the death stroke (coup de grâce) to a wounded opponent as an act of mercy by ending suffering.

kind regards

Ulfberth

AHorsa · 18th March 2016, 07:46 PM

Thanks for the reply!
From the blade I was thinking of a misericordia but the handle let me doubt it. After seeing the images Cerjak posted I am totally with you that it is one. In German they are called "Gnadgott" which means mercy of god, so same meaning like misere corde.

The one on Cerjaks pictures is dated 1575, do you think the piece in question should be dated also end of 16th century?

Is there a recommended way to preserve it? Maybe with wax/paraffin?

Thanks and kind regards
Andreas

ulfberth · 18th March 2016, 08:06 PM

The rust does not look very active, I would dry heat it and afterwards indeed use a natural wax, I usualy go for a beeswax product

kind regards

Ulfberth

AHorsa · 18th March 2016, 08:12 PM

I sometimes use renaissance wax. Is it ok for this?

Kind regards

Andreas

ulfberth · 18th March 2016, 09:13 PM

sure it will be fine, rub it in , let it sit for a night and rub with a soft cloth and you will get a nice satin luster shine

Shakethetrees · 20th March 2016, 08:31 PM

Great find!

Renaissance Wax is the gold standard for this type of work.

But, rather than using a cloth to rub it in (cloth snags on the roughness and will leave lint that can be really annoying to pick out!) I would gently heat each piece to the point where it's almost too hot to handle with bare hands, 100 to 150 degrees F., no hotter as you could dry any organics too much, and use a natural bristle brush. I get these cheapies from any hardware store for about a dollar or so and cut the bristles down to about a half inch.

These shortened bristles and the heated surfaces will make it easy to get the now liquified wax to flow into every nook and cranny.

Suspend each piece up using a piece of wood or pipe, point down and allow any excess to drip off and forget about touching them overnight.

Impregnate the wood or other organics thoroughly as well. It won't hurt, and will give some stability.

Once the wax cures, I like to use another bristle brush to go over the whole piece carefully. This aids in setting the wax down into the blisters and voids, and might skim off any excess as well.

Then, and only if you think it needs it, use a cloth lightly to add a little luster.

17th March 2016, 07:50 PM	#1
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 367	Lake-findings: Dagger, blade and cutlery Dear All, I got this estate of an diver. Should be lake findings. The most interesting piece in my eyes is the small (lefthand?-) dagger (~30cm overall length). Please see the comparison to another dagger from the 16th century and a lighter. Is it possible that it was made for kids? The single dagger blade is also a very fine peace. Is it around 1600? Would be great to get more information about all the pieces, especially the dagger and blade, but also the age of the cutlery would be interesting. Kinf regards Andreas Attached Images Last edited by AHorsa; 17th March 2016 at 11:48 PM.

17th March 2016, 10:21 PM	#2
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 367	Here is a painting from the early 17th cent. which shows a boy wearing a small dagger. I assume it´s a piece like this... https://www.flickr.com/photos/97048587@N04/16737228865 And here is the big brother (from the blade) of the tiny dagger, also with a similar marking... http://www.hermann-historica-archiv....db=kat59_a.txt Last edited by AHorsa; 17th March 2016 at 10:50 PM.

18th March 2016, 09:28 AM	#3
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	very interesting dagger ,I like to see the remainder turks head knot on the tang. Very nice find! Best Cerjak

18th March 2016, 05:43 PM	#5
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 403	Hi Andreas, very nice and interesting find, the small dagger is a misere corde and was often worn under clothing. It was used for giving the death stroke (coup de grâce) to a wounded opponent as an act of mercy by ending suffering. kind regards Ulfberth

18th March 2016, 07:46 PM	#6
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 367	Thanks for the reply! From the blade I was thinking of a misericordia but the handle let me doubt it. After seeing the images Cerjak posted I am totally with you that it is one. In German they are called "Gnadgott" which means mercy of god, so same meaning like misere corde. The one on Cerjaks pictures is dated 1575, do you think the piece in question should be dated also end of 16th century? Is there a recommended way to preserve it? Maybe with wax/paraffin? Thanks and kind regards Andreas

18th March 2016, 08:06 PM	#7
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 403	The rust does not look very active, I would dry heat it and afterwards indeed use a natural wax, I usualy go for a beeswax product kind regards Ulfberth

18th March 2016, 08:12 PM	#8
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 367	I sometimes use renaissance wax. Is it ok for this? Kind regards Andreas

18th March 2016, 09:13 PM	#9
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 403	sure it will be fine, rub it in , let it sit for a night and rub with a soft cloth and you will get a nice satin luster shine

20th March 2016, 08:31 PM	#10
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	Great find! Renaissance Wax is the gold standard for this type of work. But, rather than using a cloth to rub it in (cloth snags on the roughness and will leave lint that can be really annoying to pick out!) I would gently heat each piece to the point where it's almost too hot to handle with bare hands, 100 to 150 degrees F., no hotter as you could dry any organics too much, and use a natural bristle brush. I get these cheapies from any hardware store for about a dollar or so and cut the bristles down to about a half inch. These shortened bristles and the heated surfaces will make it easy to get the now liquified wax to flow into every nook and cranny. Suspend each piece up using a piece of wood or pipe, point down and allow any excess to drip off and forget about touching them overnight. Impregnate the wood or other organics thoroughly as well. It won't hurt, and will give some stability. Once the wax cures, I like to use another bristle brush to go over the whole piece carefully. This aids in setting the wax down into the blisters and voids, and might skim off any excess as well. Then, and only if you think it needs it, use a cloth lightly to add a little luster.