Perplexing Mark On Flintlock Holster Pistol

[dana_w]

This Holster Pistol is almost 19 inches long. It weighs 2 lb and 12 3/4 oz. It has a cryptic mark on the lock that looks something like YZAGV (or YZACV...) that was stamped upside down. There is also a Crown over an S on the lock plate. Does anyone recognize this mark?

Images are copyright (c) 2016 Dana K. Williams. All rights are reserved.

[Marcus den toom]

Just a quick remark, the top jaw and jaw screw look like they came from a miquelet pistol. Not sure though it might just be the type of lock, but it caught my eye.

My guess would be a Swedish flintlock pistol, the pommel seems similar to the ones i have seen at Swedish auctions (labeled as Swedish).

Nothing concrete, but it is a lovely piece no matter what.

[fernando]

Hi Dana,
Let us see what knowledged members say but, you must be prepaired for those marks being meaningless .

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

Just a quick remark, the top jaw and jaw screw look like they came from a miquelet pistol. Not sure though it might just be the type of lock, but it caught my eye.

My guess would be a Swedish flintlock pistol, the pommel seems similar to the ones i have seen at Swedish auctions (labeled as Swedish).

Nothing concrete, but it is a lovely piece no matter what.

You are very sharp Marcus den toom. The top jaw and jaw screw do look like they came from a Spanish pistol. I have the feeling this pistol was made in the Netherlands or Belgium, but who knows.

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Dana,
Let us see what knowledged members say but, you must be prepaired for those marks being meaningless .

I'll try not to be disappointing if no one knows, but I've been really supersized by what I have learned here at the forum.

[corrado26]

This is a Spanish cavalry pistol M 1781 (after Juan L. Calvo, Armamentos de Munición en las Fuerzas Armadas Espanolas). Cock with ringscrew and its upper lip are original and not from a miquelet pistol. Its sideplate is very characteristic.
corrado26

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by corrado26

This is a Spanish cavalry pistol M 1781 (after Juan L. Calvo, Armamentos de Munición en las Fuerzas Armadas Espanolas). Cock with ringscrew and its upper lip are original and not from a miquelet pistol. Its sideplate is very characteristic.
corrado26

Thanks so much corrado26. Can you scan the page from Juan Calvo's publication for me? I wish more of Calvo's publications were in English.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by corrado26

This is a Spanish cavalry pistol M 1781 (after Juan L. Calvo, Armamentos de Munición en las Fuerzas Armadas Espanolas). Cock with ringscrew and its upper lip are original and not from a miquelet pistol. Its sideplate is very characteristic.
corrado26

Good shot, Corrado. It must be the same pistol present in Calvó's other work, Armamento Español en la Guerra de la Independencia, page 37. Only that this time he doesn't call it 'M 1781' but 'dated 1781' ... with a lock model 1753 of the French style.
But what troubles me in the example posted by Dana is that stamp on the lock. No rational lockmaker or arsenal would stamp a mark in the inverted position. This certainly was stamped afterwards, assuming this pistol is original. Also the lettering doesn't seem to make much sense .

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by fernando

Also the lettering doesn't seem to make much sense .

I hear that.

Do you have an image from Calvo's book Fernando?

[dana_w]

As to the strange lettering, check out this image from Spanish Military Weapons In Colonial America 1700-1821 page 48.

[Fernando K]

Hey there

For me, it is a good copy of the Spanish gun, produced in Arab countries, who signed with some incomprehensible inscriptions

Fernando K

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Hey there

For me, it is a good copy of the Spanish gun, produced in Arab countries, who signed with some incomprehensible inscriptions

Fernando K

Don't say such things

Check out the photo from Spanish Military Weapons In Colonial America 1700-1821 page 48. The markings look very familiar. Just wish I had a better photo.

[Fernando K]

Hey there

I argue that is a good copy. but I did not listen ..........

Fernando K

[M ELEY]

I'm inclined to believe Fernando K is correct here. Check out this old thread concerning imported pistols from Europe going to the Barbary States (Turkey, Algiers, etc). Those odd markings match pistols from that region. Certainly, Spain did trade with Morocco and those other nations mentioned.

Another important pointer is the miquelet lock, so similar to the one on my example in the thread. Still, a very interesting flintlock with possible corsair connections!!!
Mark


www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19900

[fernando]

Originally Posted by dana_w

I hear that.

Do you have an image from Calvo's book Fernando?

^


Yes,


.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

I'm inclined to believe Fernando K is correct here...

That was also my impression. I just didn't dare to play the expert

[corrado26]

In more than 50 years of collecting European military pistols I never saw this Spanish pistol as an Arabian or Osmanic copy. Copies or pistols made in these countries have very easily to rekognize locks. and mountings that differ widely from These of this pistol The inscription "YZAGV" may be that of a Spanish maker not very well struck and could perhaps end ...YZAGUI", a typical Spanish kind of spelling family names. I think this is a genuine Spanish pistol.
corrado26

[fernando]

Well noted, Corrado.
But then and, not wishing to perpetuate this issue and, assuming that the name in the mark is a plausible one, with all your experience of collecting, have you ever seen a lock maker stamp whis own name upside down ?

[dana_w]

Thanks for posting an image of the page for me fernando!

Thanks for your comments corrado26. Like fernando and Fernando K, I too find the markings very perplexing. But I am not persuaded the pistol is an Arabian or Osmanic copy.

Here are some additional photos:

[corrado26]

No, I have never seen this, but don't forget: this is not a civilian but a military pistol made in great numbers in the 18. century. Why, I ask you, should'nt it happen that in a moment of little attention the punch was struck upside down? Not beauty was necessary but effectivness, i.e. the name struck into the not yet hardened lockplate had to be readable, not more.
As far as I know the "R" on the thumbplate stands for "REY" = king. I think this might be proof of the originality of the pistol. It demonstrates that this pistol was in stately Spanish property.
Sorry for my bad English
corrado26

[fernando]

Alright Corrado, let's agree with you .
In fact there were Basque gun makers with the name Yzaguirre since the XVII century. In a pistol i have seen, one of these members stroke the mark YZAGE.
So we tend to assume that the guy in charge of marking the pistol of this thread was either doped or falling asleep .

.

[corrado26]

Thanks Fernando for the gunmakers name Yzaguirre, it is not listed in one of my spanish books (Neal, Spanish Guns and Pistols and Lavin, A history of Spanish firearms) and the "Neue Stockel" so I'll add it immediately.
Thanks
corrado26

[NeilUK]

I have some familiarity with 18th century flintlock pistols (while not being an expert), and I tend to agree with Corrado that the pistol is genuine Spanish and more certainly that it is not an Ottoman or N.African copy. The mark being upside down is peculiar but not totally inexplicable, and the curve of the lockplate could explain the missing end of the name.
Neil

[Fernando K]

Hey there
By a principle of intellectual honesty, I must rectify
The punch used the antiquated form of the letter I by the letter and the letter V and the letter U
Thus, the punch says I Z A G U (Y Z A G V) which is to say IZAGUIRRE
On page 347 of Ramiro Larrañaga, "Synthesis of the Basque Historical armory" is a drawing of Calvo, pistol model 1753, produced in 1781 by AZCARATE, and the punch says AZCA
On the lisma work, page 222 one IZAGUIRRE, Gabriel is detailed as lockmaker, 1745 and Simon, the factory stockmaker Silillos, 1720
In the work of Barcelo Rubi "Spanish portable armament", on page 219, the gun described in use in 1784, saying it has a escutcheon with a R engraved inside.
The S corresponds to the factory SILILLOS
Sorry for the translator
Affectionately. Fernando K

[corrado26]

Many thanks to Fernando K
corrado26

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Hey there
By a principle of intellectual honesty, I must rectify
The punch used the antiquated form of the letter I by the letter and the letter V and the letter U
Thus, the punch says I Z A G U (Y Z A G V) which is to say IZAGUIRRE
On page 347 of Ramiro Larrañaga, "Synthesis of the Basque Historical armory" is a drawing of Calvo, pistol model 1753, produced in 1781 by AZCARATE, and the punch says AZCA
On the lisma work, page 222 one IZAGUIRRE, Gabriel is detailed as lockmaker, 1745 and Simon, the factory stockmaker Silillos, 1720
In the work of Barcelo Rubi "Spanish portable armament", on page 219, the gun described in use in 1784, saying it has a escutcheon with a R engraved inside.
The S corresponds to the factory SILILLOS
Sorry for the translator
Affectionately. Fernando K

Thanks so much Fernando K. That is most helpful information, and very much appreciated.

Some short notes:

************

Ramiro Larrañaga is a prestigious Basque arms industry expert. Trained as an engraver and a great capacity for self-learning feature in studies on the tradition armera Deva Valley, especially in his hometown, Placencia de las Armas and the neighboring town of Eibar . He developed important historical works and edited reference works from the history of the gunsmith manufacturing to the uniqueness of the Basque language .

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramiro_Larra%C3%B1aga

Síntesis histórica de la armería vasca. Publicada en 1981.
(Historical synthesis of Basque armory. Published in 1981 .)

ISBN 9788472316294

http://www.amazon.es/S%C3%8DNTESIS-H.../dp/B00CY1BKUW

http://www.euskomedia.org/PDFAnlt/riev/30/30109110.pdf

*************

"lisma Work"?
AKA Same Work.

**************

Bernardo Barceló Rubí, Tres Siglos de Armamento Portátil en España
(Bernardo Barceló Rubí, 3 CENTURIES OF PORTABLE ARMS IN SPAIN)

ISBN: 978-84-607-5934-8
EAN: 9788460759348

Bernardo Barceló Rubí, El armamento portatil español (1764-1939), una labor artillera
Bernardo Barceló Rubí, (The Spanish portable weapons (1764-1939), an artillery work)

ISBN:84-7140-138-X

***************


The site of Silillos, near the town of Valdetorres along the Jarama River
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6900...5318557,14.25z

Silillos (Valdetorres de Jarama)


SILILLOS
Whereas the production of Catalan and Basque had (it to be insufficient for the Total Army Equipment. Felipe V commissioned Juan de Moros. Master Arms of the Court, the installation of a factory near Madrid, considered in 1719 that the site more suitable for the installation of the new plant was the site of Silillos, near the town of Valdetorres along the Jarama River, which had been a grain and paper mills that could adapt to the new destination without overspending. The same year Construction began under the direction of architect José de Churriguera, naming asentista Antonio Puche and in 1729 came the first artisans helmets and Catalan, but construction of the factory began to fall behind and after a series of lawsuits and difficulties liquidation was decided. in 1725. waive Antonio Puche to dohis position asentista while claiming the sum of 3.231 million Fleece indicating Royals have advanced in the unfortunate experience. In 1757 the existence of the Silillos factory as such is very questionable, but the instructions to be followed by suppliers approved that year still mentioning the brand that will distinguish the production of that factory, which by 1770 was again tried to start moving there were some Basque artisans start making a new key proposed by the watch of Madrid, Juan Leclerge, but the attempt failed again due to unsafe place, and Silillos was finally abandoned

http://www.scribd.com/doc/193070812/...75-1943#scribd

[Fernando K]

Hey there

By a typo, I wanted to put "same work" and became "lisma". The machine translation could not do, and translated "lisma". I apologize

affectionately. Fernando K

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Hey there

By a typo, I wanted to put "same work" and became "lisma". The machine translation could not do, and translated "lisma". I apologize

affectionately. Fernando K

Thanks again Fernando K!!!