New member needs some help!

[timmyb]

I am a new member to this forum and I am hoping to find out as much information as I can about this sword. From what I have seen on here so far I should have no problem getting the help I need! I am blow away by the amount of information available on this forum and the experts in this field willing to help someone like me. I have never belonged to a forum of any kind so please forgive me if I post in the wrong place. Thank you for your help.
Tim


I dont think the pictures are loading. I'm having a hard time making them small enough to post. Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Tim

[Dom]

Originally Posted by timmyb

I dont think the pictures are loading. I'm having a hard time making them small enough to post. Any suggestions?

Hi Tim
my suggestion is to avoid your compression system, at least with me generating a problem to open pics
solution; choose two or three pics the most representatives, and we shall see

à +

Dom

[timmyb]

Originally Posted by Dom

Hi Tim
my suggestion is to avoid your compression system, at least with me generating a problem to open pics
solution; choose two or three pics the most representatives, and we shall see

à +

Dom

Thanks for the help Dom. I think I got it!!

Tim

[Battara]

Well, this looks like a Moro (southern Philippines) kris sword. The piece appears to be from the late 19th to early 20th century and from the pictures from the Maguindanao tribe. It is a datu piece (a chieftain) and may have originally been a junggayan type of kris. The hilt is made of woven silver and swassa (a type of 9k gold). A silver clamp is on the blade.

Now that all being said, the pommel is atypical and appears recent - later addition to the piece. It is made of ivory, the curve made of a boar's tusk. The stone at the top may be real but I suspect it is glass. Top and bottom of the pommel seems to be made of silver with little pieces of swassa.

Hope this helps and welcome to our little forum.

[David]

Wow, that's a bit different. I agree that the hilt treatment is probably not original, but i'm not so sure that it is recent. How recent do you think it is Jose?

[Anandalal N.]

Is the pommel Ivory or bone seeing it is not one solid piece but is cladding round a solid core. Beautiful piece certainly.

[Battara]

Originally Posted by David

Wow, that's a bit different. I agree that the hilt treatment is probably not original, but i'm not so sure that it is recent. How recent do you think it is Jose?

I guess I need to define what I mean by recent. I am thinking it is 1950s. Notice that the patina of the tusk ivory does not match the ivory it is attached, and that one attached is whiter. The workmanship of these mounts is of a lesser quality as well.

Another look at this may make me change my mind and say that this is Sulu instead of Maguindanao.

[VANDOO]

A VERY INTERESTING AND UNIQUE KRIS AND A COOL FIRST POST. THE GUARD APPEARS TO BE MADE FROM A WARTHOG TUSK,(ORIGIN AFRICA) THERE IS QUITE
A BIT OF INTERESTING WORKMANSHIP ON THE HANDLE, THE SILVER CAP ON THE TUSK APPEARS TO HAVE QUITE A BIT OF BLACK OXIDATION (TARNISH) THE RING NEAR THE TIP OF THE TUSK HAS SMALLER GEM STONES(PERHAPS GARNETS) MOUNTED SOME OF WHICH ARE MISSING AND THE SETTING DENTED AND DEFORMED LIKELY FROM WEARING IT. THE TUSK MAY HAVE ALREADY HAD THESE PIECES AND BEEN PART OF SOMETHING ELSE OR COULD HAVE BEEN DONE JUST FOR THIS KRIS. THE SILVER BEAD WORK GOING UP THE SIDES OF THE TUSK MAY BE TO HELP ATTACH IT OR JUST FOR DECORATION BUT ARE VERY UNUSUAL. THE IVORY PIECES ON THE POMMEL ARE LIKELY CUT FROM WARTHOG TUSK IF MADE AT THE SAME TIME BUT MAY BE ANOTHER TYPE OF IVORY?? THE SWASSA AND SILVER DECORATION INDICATES TO ME SOMEONE SPENT QUITE A BIT OF MONEY TO HAVE THIS HANDLE MADE SO I WOULD TAKE IT TO A JEWELER TO CHECK THE STONE IN THE POMMEL BECAUSE IF IT IS REAL YOU NEED TO KNOW IT. A STONE OF THAT SIZE WOULD BE WORTH SOME HEAVY CASH BUT IT IS LIKELY TO BE GLASS OR SYNTHETIC WHICH MAY HELP GET AN IDEA TO ITS AGE AS A GOOD JEWELER SHOULD BE ABLE TO MAKE A GUESS AS TO DATE AND WHERE CUT BY LOOKING AT THE MATERIAL AND FACETING WORK. IF PLASTIC IT WILL BE QUITE RECENT IF A TOP QUALITY GLASS SYNTHETIC IT WILL BE OLDER BUT STILL RELATIVELY RECENT. IF ITS A REAL TOP QUALITY PINK SAPPHIRE IT NEEDS TO LIVE IN A SAFE OR VAULT. LOOK IN THE RECESSES AND CRACKS AROUND ALL FITTINGS FOR CRUD (DIRT CORROSION ECT.) IF ITS CLEAN OR THERE IS RECENT GLUE THAT'S A BAD SIGN THAT IT MAY HAVE BEEN PUT TOGETHER RECENTLY.AS ALWAYS I CAN'T JUDGE VERY WELL FROM PICTURES. WELCOME TO THE FORUM AND GOOD LUCK

[Atlantia]

Welcome to the forums Timmyb.
What a fantastic looking and unique piece!
The tusk knuckle bow is a completely new concept in my experience.

Congratulations on a great looking sword!

Best
Gene

[Spunjer]

it's a novelty kalis... meaning the handguard was added for no other reason than:

a) to bolster sale (done by a lumad or christian vendor)
b) the new owner's (most likely a foreigner) personal whim

i don't see any reason why a moro would desicrate a kalis with a part of an "unclean" animal...

[Battara]

Very true Ron, very true............

[David]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

i don't see any reason why a moro would desicrate a kalis with a part of an "unclean" animal...

Very good point Ron, this wasn't done by a Muslim for a Muslim.

[timmyb]

Well....I knew I would get some great information here and I did! Thank you to everyone who took the time to look at the sword and post your thoughts. I'm using all of the information gathered to do some more research. A Kris isn't something you see in rural upstate NY where I am from so this was a good find for me. Now I am watching the inventory of the local antique shops and putting some feelers out there to see if I can find any more interesting weapons. I will keep you all posted!! Thanks Again.

Timmyb

[Spunjer]

timmyb, if you clean the blade (0000 steel wool, warm water and dish soap) then mildly etch it with vinegar, you might find a beautiful pattern running along the blade, most likely a skunk stripe pattern. here's an almost similar blade to what you have:

[David]

Originally Posted by timmyb

A Kris isn't something you see in rural upstate NY where I am from so this was a good find for me. Now I am watching the inventory of the local antique shops and putting some feelers out there to see if I can find any more interesting weapons.

Hey Timmy, i found my first kris at an antique mall in rural New Hampshire. You really never know where these objects will pop up. Quite a few ended up in the States when soldiers returned home from the U.S. actions in the Philippines at the very beginning of the 20th century so they end up all over rural America.

[timmyb]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

timmyb, if you clean the blade (0000 steel wool, warm water and dish soap) then mildly etch it with vinegar, you might find a beautiful pattern running along the blade, most likely a skunk stripe pattern. here's an almost similar blade to what you have:

HeY Thanks for the tip Spunjer. I was wondering how to properly clean this piece. What do you mean by "etch" it with vinegar? Also, would I use dish soap and water to clean the rest of it as well? Thanks again!

Timmyb

[timmyb]

Originally Posted by David

Hey Timmy, i found my first kris at an antique mall in rural New Hampshire. You really never know where these objects will pop up. Quite a few ended up in the States when soldiers returned home from the U.S. actions in the Philippines at the very beginning of the 20th century so they end up all over rural America.

Hey David.....Great story! Were you looking for the Kris when you found it or did you just see it and become interested? Where I live people seem to be most interested in anything American and not so much antiques from other parts of the world. How many pieces do you have now and do you have any advice for a life long antique collector and first time Kris owner? I am interested in building a collection.

Thanks Again,

Tim

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by timmyb

HeY Thanks for the tip Spunjer. I was wondering how to properly clean this piece. What do you mean by "etch" it with vinegar? Also, would I use dish soap and water to clean the rest of it as well? Thanks again!

Timmyb

If I may field this one, just in case you decide to go ahead and try it

The hilt does not need cleaning. Don't do anything to the hilt, it's fine as it is.
Spunjer is only talking about cleaning the blade in preparation for the etch, wait for him to come back with details on that.

Best
Gene

[Spunjer]

atlantia is correct. handle is fine. you might just wanna polish the silver and swaasa with a silver polisher you can buy at jewelry stores, walmart, or krogers. i'd stay away from the Tarn-X brand tho. that's some potent stuff.

as far as the blade: etching is the process of removing a very, very thin layer of the blade to show the active lamination on the blade. before doing this, you must remove any oil that's on the blade first and to do that, you will need a 0000 steel wool and dish soap. wet the blade with warm water, apply some dish soap on it and just scrub it with the steel wool. that's it! rinse it after that. if you have acetone, you can apply this after cleaning the blade, to ensure all oil or grease is gone. looks like you have some grease closest to the handle... a fast way to find out if there's lamination would be to run hot water from the faucet on the blade. if there's lamination, you will see it appear before your eyes.
as far as etching; check this thread out:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=etch+vinegar
you could skip the polishing part if you've already clean the blade. hope this helps...

[Battara]

Yes I agree with Spunger. Tarn-X will eat into the silver.

[David]

Originally Posted by timmyb

Hey David.....Great story! Were you looking for the Kris when you found it or did you just see it and become interested? Where I live people seem to be most interested in anything American and not so much antiques from other parts of the world. How many pieces do you have now and do you have any advice for a life long antique collector and first time Kris owner? I am interested in building a collection.

Thanks Again,

Tim

This was very many years ago and at the time i had no idea what it was. I brought it into the Arms & Armor curator at Met in NYC for ID. But from there i slowly became addicted. Though my interest shifted more toward the Indonesian keris form i now own more Moro kris and Indo keris than i have counted as of late.
My best advice for building a collection is to find a dealer(s) that you know you can trust. Deals exist on ePray and you can find them in the antique malls at times, but if you are not well versed in what you are looking for it is really easy to be fooled by modern repros and outright fakes.
Also read all you can on the subject here, in books and on the internet. Study the culture along with the weapon for a better understanding.

[laEspadaAncha]

Originally Posted by timmyb

...do you have any advice for a life long antique collector and first time Kris owner? I am interested in building a collection.

Thanks Again,

Tim

Hi Tim,

While your question was addressed to David, if I may suggest, you might find immense enjoyment in reading a recently re-published book about the culture and the warriors to whom these fascinating weapons are attributed, Swish of the Kris by Vic Hurley. The book, while romanticizing the warrior culture of the Moros, will undoubtedly give you a newfound appreciation for your beautiful kris.

Welcome to the forum, BTW...

[David]

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

While your question was addressed to David, if I may suggest, you might find immense enjoyment in reading a recently re-published book about the culture and the warriors to whom these fascinating weapons are attributed, Swish of the Kris by Vic Hurley. The book, while romanticizing the warrior culture of the Moros, will undoubtedly give you a newfound appreciation for your beautiful kris.

You can read this one online if you wish...
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3272381/book...the%20Kris.pdf

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by timmyb

do you have any advice for a life long antique collector and first time Kris owner? I am interested in building a collection.

Hi Tim,

Read a lot of old books, look at old taken images, drawings, privat collections, provenanced pieces, museumcollections, and try to collect on quality, rarely seen pieces, different pieces, or provenanced pieces, and most likely I want them all with the old patina....

The written above is counting for me concerning krisses and it is applying on all other pieces in my collection, as far as my financial funds could go.


Rg,
Maurice

[Rick]

There is so much to be gleaned from our archives ............