Afghan Jezail With ALL Possibles!

trenchwarfare · 22nd July 2015, 03:26 AM

I've looked at a lot of old guns over the years. But seldom, do you find one with EVERYTHING, that went with it. This piece was collected in the 1960s by a member of the State Department. As best I can tell, it has all possibles you would need to fire, and maintain this weapon. Lock is marked MOORE. Barrel length is 36", with an overall length of 50". I can identify most of the accouterments, on the belt. However, there are some puzzlements. What are the two curved horn devices, on both ends of the belt? What is the purpose of the massive steel hooks beside them? Both powder flasks are attached to the belt, but I doubt they belong there. What is the turned wood, baton looking thingy? Any assistance is much appreciated, And please, no drooling on the keyboard. Sorry for the crappy photos.

AJ1356 · 22nd July 2015, 05:02 AM

That is a very nice jezail, and the cherrie on top is all the little tools and what not, very awesome. Some of those peices like the belt and the attachments are a rarity, and I had not seen them all together like this before.

kahnjar1 · 22nd July 2015, 09:53 AM

Now that is a beautiful set. Those mystery bits have been subject of discussion before http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13900
No conclusive decision was made then either. The large hooks I THINK are for hanging the larger type Afghani flask, and I have attached a pic of one. There is a metal link on the back of these flasks which must be designed to hang on something....maybe those hooks.
Stu

trenchwarfare · 22nd July 2015, 07:11 PM

I think the hooks are as stated, for hanging the flasks, and/or other uses. Such as hanging a sword, in the "regain" position. The curved, decorated horn thingies, could be just decoration, or for tying something off. The two metal tools are easy. The one shaped like a boat anchor, is a screwdriver, for removing the lock screws. The other, is for tightening, or loosening the hammer jaws. I discovered, that the turned wood thing, is hollow, with a partition in the middle. Both ends are plugged with a removable plug. One side has a brass band. I think it is a flask for shot. Two different sizes. The band indicates which is which. Looks like it was attached between the two other flasks. The little pouch on the sling, has cloth patches in it. With all the gee-gaws, this rig had to be for a mounted man. Add a sword, knife, and riding crop... Will take better pictures this evening, when the light is favorable.

kahnjar1 · 22nd July 2015, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trenchwarfare

I think the hooks are as stated, for hanging the flasks, and/or other uses. Such as hanging a sword, in the "regain" position. The curved, decorated horn thingies, could be just decoration, or for tying something off. The two metal tools are easy. The one shaped like a boat anchor, is a screwdriver, for removing the lock screws. The other, is for tightening, or loosening the hammer jaws. I discovered, that the turned wood thing, is hollow, with a partition in the middle. Both ends are plugged with a removable plug. One side has a brass band. I think it is a flask for shot. Two different sizes. The band indicates which is which. Looks like it was attached between the two other flasks. The little pouch on the sling, has cloth patches in it. With all the gee-gaws, this rig had to be for a mounted man. Add a sword, knife, and riding crop... Will take better pictures this evening, when the light is favorable.

Hi Trenchwarfare
No..... the thing shaped like an anchor is not a screwdriver, but is in fact what is known as a flint knapper/hammer, for shaping/chipping flints, though I guess the "blade" end could be used as a screwdriver if needed. Check the linked thread I gave you at post #3 and you will see three of these attached to the belt shown there, and also the larger flask hanging on one of those hooks.
Your two part wooden "thing" I am almost certain is/are flasks of some sort. I have seen single ones for sale on Ebay.
Stu

mrcjgscott · 22nd July 2015, 09:51 PM

Hello Trenchwarfare,

Many thanks for sharing this brilliant set, certainly the only one I have ever seen!

Kind regards,

Chris

archer · 23rd July 2015, 05:34 AM

Hi, I've been told the hooks are for swords, etc. I have a similar horn tool i suspected might have been used to hold a match it has a charred area. Seeing two with a flint action doesn't help that guess, My kamar seemed to be partially pieced together so I'd love to know it's true use. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13900 Quite a neat collection. Steve

ward · 23rd July 2015, 03:45 PM

I have a 2 or 3 of these on various belts. Made off horn with brass inlay. I do not think they are sword hangers, to awkward. I wondered I they were for hanging game or for some reason tying the reins of a horse.

trenchwarfare · 24th July 2015, 02:15 AM

Here's some much mo-betta pictures. I did some tweaking on the belt, and laid it out how it might have been worn. I think as others have suggested, that the curved horn thingys are tie downs. Possibly to tie yourself in the saddle. A charging camel isn't a very stable platform for fighting from.

rickystl · 26th July 2015, 05:13 PM

Hi Trench.
That is the most fantastic looking set I've ever seen. The gun and accessory belt are so complete, and in such wonderful condition. Don't think it gets any better than this. Yes, I'm still wiping the drewl from my mouth. LOL

A quick question before I forget, which may answer another question: Is the barrel rifled or smoothbore?

GUN: A great looking Jazail. With typical English trade lock (not a locally made copy), and does not seem to be missing anything. I REALLY like the triggerguard on this one. The 36" barrel length would have been more convenient for use on horseback. A great looking example!!!

My opinions on the accessory belt pieces:

COMBINATION TOOLS: The "pick" looking piece was used to re-knap a dull flint. The other end is a flat blade screwdriver for removing the lock plate screws to clean and maintainence the inside of the lock.The other tapered metal tool is used to tighten/loosen the top screw of the hammer to replace/adjust the flint. This method actually works better than a screwdriver slot on top of the screw.
COTTON/WOOL MOP HEAD: Could be used to clean the lock pan area and frizzen face after shooting. But there doesn't seem to be any black powder residue on it. So I think it's primary purpose was to keep an EMPTY pan and vent hole dry between shootings. The frizzen was partially lowered on the mop head to keep it in place. The barrel could stay loaded.
SMALL POUCH ATTACHED TO SLING: Could be used for pre-greased/lubed shooting patches. It looks like grease/lube has soaked the leather in the past. Very cool.
METAL HOOKS: As others have said, I think these are simply hooks for the gun accessories, swords, knives, rope, etc.
POWDER FLASKS: The leather powder flask is done in the typical Arab style. If the opening is large enough, it could be used to carry primary barrel powder - or lead balls. The wooden flask is most interesting. It looks like a seperate priming flask with it's lever. But it also looks like it has a seperate shut-off at the tip (?). Would really like to see some more close up pics of this flask to determine how it works and the size of the hole at the tip.
TWO PART WOOD WAND WITH DIVIDER: Actually, I have no idea.

Never seen one before. Someone mentioned it could be for two different sizes of buckshot. If the gun is a smoothbore, that is possible. But if it's a rifled bore, it has to be for something else. A real mystery.
TWO CURVED HORN PIECES: Never seen these before either. But I've been thinking about these for a few days now since the post. Due to the shape and location of both at the ends of the belt, I think these may have been used to "cradle" the gun in a horizonal position while riding on horseback. That way the gun was rested in a "ready" state should an immediate need arise. This, with the slightly shorter 36" barrel length would distribute the weight of the gun more evenly. And I believe many riders would use horse blankets only, with no saddles, or saddles lacking horns. Just my best guess.

It almost seems that the gun and all the accessories were all thought of and built at the same time. It's certainly the coolest looking set I've ever seen.
And a fantastic addition to a collection.

Trench: Let me know about the barrel, and if you have any more close up pics of the wooden flask. And thanks for posting this amazing set. (Still drewling) Rick.

trenchwarfare · 26th July 2015, 06:03 PM

Thanks for the comments, and compliments Rick. Given the smooth patina on the gun, I feel that it is contemporary to the age of the lock. Barrel is smooth bore, so my "shot flask" theory is plausible. The little pouch on the sling, does contain patches. The "wood" flask, is actually horn. Probably Ram. The leaver on the side, has a natural spring effect, opening, and closing with pressure. The plug is internal. The curved horn thingys are probably as you said, a rifle rest, or multiple other uses. The flask, has the same carved "birds head" device, the horn thingys have. Will try to take more pictures. Yes, this the most beautiful, and complete weapon of it's type, I have ever seen. Makes me want to build a mannequin around it. I have a sword, and dagger.

ward · 26th July 2015, 06:10 PM

usually there is only 1 of these odd horn pieces in the back. Since I am not sure what it is used for I do not understand why yours has 2 towards the buckle. It is the 1st time I have seen a belt with 2 horn pieces.

rickystl · 26th July 2015, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trenchwarfare

Thanks for the comments, and compliments Rick. Given the smooth patina on the gun, I feel that it is contemporary to the age of the lock. Barrel is smooth bore, so my "shot flask" theory is plausible. The little pouch on the sling, does contain patches. The "wood" flask, is actually horn. Probably Ram. The leaver on the side, has a natural spring effect, opening, and closing with pressure. The plug is internal. The curved horn thingys are probably as you said, a rifle rest, or multiple other uses. The flask, has the same carved "birds head" device, the horn thingys have. Will try to take more pictures. Yes, this the most beautiful, and complete weapon of it's type, I have ever seen. Makes me want to build a mannequin around it. I have a sword, and dagger.

Hi Trench.
OK. A smoothbore. That makes the "shot" theory a little more plausible as you say. That rams horn flask is probably a seperate priming flask. But I don't think the gun is too contemporary per say. Possibly newly stocked in the late 19th Century utilizing an older lock and/or barrel. That would have been quite common. I think it's ALL the genuine article.

Rick.

rickystl · 26th July 2015, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

usually there is only 1 of these odd horn pieces in the back. Since I am not sure what it is used for I do not understand why yours has 2 towards the buckle. It is the 1st time I have seen a belt with 2 horn pieces.

Hi Ward.
Thanks for these additional photos. There's those horn things again. Hmmm...
Now these look like they had some type of rope or twine inter-wrapped around them (?) I still

A real mystery.
Rick.

As long as we're talking Jazails, I'll post another today.

ward · 26th July 2015, 09:31 PM

I found a couple more of this type in another pile of belts.

trenchwarfare · 27th July 2015, 12:07 AM

Ward, that must be one impressive box-o-belts you have!?

ward · 27th July 2015, 12:12 AM

I got into collecting belts for a number of years. I think they are interesting. The brass chains on those things act as suspenders. Probably a idea copied off the British soldiers

rickystl · 27th July 2015, 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

I got into collecting belts for a number of years. I think they are interesting. The brass chains on those things act as suspenders. Probably a idea copied off the British soldiers

Hi Ward.
Another really nice set!! And there's those horn things again. The possible use of those chains as suspenders or shoulder harness is something I never thought of. Yes, that makes sense. Thanks for posting and your comments.

All the accessory belts above make mine look like it's been scavaged!.

LOL.
Rick.

ward · 27th July 2015, 03:20 AM

here is on of the piles I've got a sort thru and find a way to exhibit them.

rickystl · 27th July 2015, 03:33 AM

LOL!!!!! Yet more projects. You may have to have me over to help "rumage" through the piles. On second thought, I can't even get all my projects done

Rick.

22nd July 2015, 03:26 AM	#1
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	Afghan Jezail With ALL Possibles! I've looked at a lot of old guns over the years. But seldom, do you find one with EVERYTHING, that went with it. This piece was collected in the 1960s by a member of the State Department. As best I can tell, it has all possibles you would need to fire, and maintain this weapon. Lock is marked MOORE. Barrel length is 36", with an overall length of 50". I can identify most of the accouterments, on the belt. However, there are some puzzlements. What are the two curved horn devices, on both ends of the belt? What is the purpose of the massive steel hooks beside them? Both powder flasks are attached to the belt, but I doubt they belong there. What is the turned wood, baton looking thingy? Any assistance is much appreciated, And please, no drooling on the keyboard. Sorry for the crappy photos. Attached Images

23rd July 2015, 05:34 AM	#7
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Kamar tools Hi, I've been told the hooks are for swords, etc. I have a similar horn tool i suspected might have been used to hold a match it has a charred area. Seeing two with a flint action doesn't help that guess, My kamar seemed to be partially pieced together so I'd love to know it's true use. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13900 Quite a neat collection. Steve

24th July 2015, 02:15 AM	#9
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	Here's some much mo-betta pictures. I did some tweaking on the belt, and laid it out how it might have been worn. I think as others have suggested, that the curved horn thingys are tie downs. Possibly to tie yourself in the saddle. A charging camel isn't a very stable platform for fighting from. Attached Images

26th July 2015, 06:10 PM	#12
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	usually there is only 1 of these odd horn pieces in the back. Since I am not sure what it is used for I do not understand why yours has 2 towards the buckle. It is the 1st time I have seen a belt with 2 horn pieces. Attached Images

26th July 2015, 09:31 PM	#15
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	I found a couple more of this type in another pile of belts. Attached Images

22nd July 2015, 05:02 AM	#2
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 314	That is a very nice jezail, and the cherrie on top is all the little tools and what not, very awesome. Some of those peices like the belt and the attachments are a rarity, and I had not seen them all together like this before.

22nd July 2015, 09:53 AM	#3
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,741	Now that is a beautiful set. Those mystery bits have been subject of discussion before http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13900 No conclusive decision was made then either. The large hooks I THINK are for hanging the larger type Afghani flask, and I have attached a pic of one. There is a metal link on the back of these flasks which must be designed to hang on something....maybe those hooks. Stu Attached Images

22nd July 2015, 07:11 PM	#4
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	I think the hooks are as stated, for hanging the flasks, and/or other uses. Such as hanging a sword, in the "regain" position. The curved, decorated horn thingies, could be just decoration, or for tying something off. The two metal tools are easy. The one shaped like a boat anchor, is a screwdriver, for removing the lock screws. The other, is for tightening, or loosening the hammer jaws. I discovered, that the turned wood thing, is hollow, with a partition in the middle. Both ends are plugged with a removable plug. One side has a brass band. I think it is a flask for shot. Two different sizes. The band indicates which is which. Looks like it was attached between the two other flasks. The little pouch on the sling, has cloth patches in it. With all the gee-gaws, this rig had to be for a mounted man. Add a sword, knife, and riding crop... Will take better pictures this evening, when the light is favorable.

22nd July 2015, 09:51 PM	#6
mrcjgscott Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 189	Hello Trenchwarfare, Many thanks for sharing this brilliant set, certainly the only one I have ever seen! Kind regards, Chris

23rd July 2015, 03:45 PM	#8
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	I have a 2 or 3 of these on various belts. Made off horn with brass inlay. I do not think they are sword hangers, to awkward. I wondered I they were for hanging game or for some reason tying the reins of a horse.

26th July 2015, 05:13 PM	#10
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Trench. That is the most fantastic looking set I've ever seen. The gun and accessory belt are so complete, and in such wonderful condition. Don't think it gets any better than this. Yes, I'm still wiping the drewl from my mouth. LOL A quick question before I forget, which may answer another question: Is the barrel rifled or smoothbore? GUN: A great looking Jazail. With typical English trade lock (not a locally made copy), and does not seem to be missing anything. I REALLY like the triggerguard on this one. The 36" barrel length would have been more convenient for use on horseback. A great looking example!!! My opinions on the accessory belt pieces: COMBINATION TOOLS: The "pick" looking piece was used to re-knap a dull flint. The other end is a flat blade screwdriver for removing the lock plate screws to clean and maintainence the inside of the lock.The other tapered metal tool is used to tighten/loosen the top screw of the hammer to replace/adjust the flint. This method actually works better than a screwdriver slot on top of the screw. COTTON/WOOL MOP HEAD: Could be used to clean the lock pan area and frizzen face after shooting. But there doesn't seem to be any black powder residue on it. So I think it's primary purpose was to keep an EMPTY pan and vent hole dry between shootings. The frizzen was partially lowered on the mop head to keep it in place. The barrel could stay loaded. SMALL POUCH ATTACHED TO SLING: Could be used for pre-greased/lubed shooting patches. It looks like grease/lube has soaked the leather in the past. Very cool. METAL HOOKS: As others have said, I think these are simply hooks for the gun accessories, swords, knives, rope, etc. POWDER FLASKS: The leather powder flask is done in the typical Arab style. If the opening is large enough, it could be used to carry primary barrel powder - or lead balls. The wooden flask is most interesting. It looks like a seperate priming flask with it's lever. But it also looks like it has a seperate shut-off at the tip (?). Would really like to see some more close up pics of this flask to determine how it works and the size of the hole at the tip. TWO PART WOOD WAND WITH DIVIDER: Actually, I have no idea. Never seen one before. Someone mentioned it could be for two different sizes of buckshot. If the gun is a smoothbore, that is possible. But if it's a rifled bore, it has to be for something else. A real mystery. TWO CURVED HORN PIECES: Never seen these before either. But I've been thinking about these for a few days now since the post. Due to the shape and location of both at the ends of the belt, I think these may have been used to "cradle" the gun in a horizonal position while riding on horseback. That way the gun was rested in a "ready" state should an immediate need arise. This, with the slightly shorter 36" barrel length would distribute the weight of the gun more evenly. And I believe many riders would use horse blankets only, with no saddles, or saddles lacking horns. Just my best guess. It almost seems that the gun and all the accessories were all thought of and built at the same time. It's certainly the coolest looking set I've ever seen. And a fantastic addition to a collection. Trench: Let me know about the barrel, and if you have any more close up pics of the wooden flask. And thanks for posting this amazing set. (Still drewling) Rick.

26th July 2015, 06:03 PM	#11
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	Thanks for the comments, and compliments Rick. Given the smooth patina on the gun, I feel that it is contemporary to the age of the lock. Barrel is smooth bore, so my "shot flask" theory is plausible. The little pouch on the sling, does contain patches. The "wood" flask, is actually horn. Probably Ram. The leaver on the side, has a natural spring effect, opening, and closing with pressure. The plug is internal. The curved horn thingys are probably as you said, a rifle rest, or multiple other uses. The flask, has the same carved "birds head" device, the horn thingys have. Will try to take more pictures. Yes, this the most beautiful, and complete weapon of it's type, I have ever seen. Makes me want to build a mannequin around it. I have a sword, and dagger.

27th July 2015, 12:07 AM	#16
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	Ward, that must be one impressive box-o-belts you have!?

27th July 2015, 12:12 AM	#17
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	I got into collecting belts for a number of years. I think they are interesting. The brass chains on those things act as suspenders. Probably a idea copied off the British soldiers

27th July 2015, 03:20 AM	#19
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	here is on of the piles I've got a sort thru and find a way to exhibit them. Attached Images

27th July 2015, 03:33 AM	#20
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	LOL!!!!! Yet more projects. You may have to have me over to help "rumage" through the piles. On second thought, I can't even get all my projects done Rick.