Ethiopian sword/spanish blade

roanoa · 18th March 2019, 09:01 PM

Picked up this sword with an interesting blade. It is German made (Solingen) by Schnitt??? & Kirschbaum. Writhing is in Spanish which, I suppose, means that it was made for a Spanish speaking country, either Spain or one South America country other than Brazil. Any thought, anyone, about model, age, country?

Martin Lubojacky · 18th March 2019, 09:30 PM

Hi Ron, I don´t have any thought in this case ... Just only - that the diversity of Abyssinian gorade blades is countless....

Jim McDougall · 18th March 2019, 10:02 PM

Interesting attempt at script on this one, an amalgam of in Solingen then in Alemania (=same thing) then Fabrica etc.
This is a M1796 British cavalry blade with spurious inscription which seems odd as this would hardly pass as legitimate.

As always as well noted by Martin......the anomalies in blades mounted in these Ethiopian gurades much as throughout Red Sea entrepots are infinite. This extends to so many ethnographic cultural situations.

These M1796 blades, while typically marked on the back of the blade with makers name, seem to have been produced in volume as 'blanks' in some cases.

MForde · 19th March 2019, 12:03 PM

The fuller and curve don't quite fit the 1796 troopers' sabre so perhaps it was an officer's 'fighting' version, devoid of decoration. Certainly, very similar and quite possibly mid-Victorian.

midelburgo · 19th March 2019, 01:27 PM

Spain used a lot of 1796 after 1808, either passed by the British or purchased by many patriotic corporations.

I do not see why it should be spurious. The script is a bit Runkel-like.

Ren Ren · 19th March 2019, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roanoa

Schnitt??? & Kirschbaum

Schnitzler & Kirschbaum

Jim McDougall · 19th March 2019, 04:56 PM

You are quite right Midelburgo, and I thank you for noting this and prompting a second look here...……...this blade may indeed have a far more interesting history than I had estimated. It comes from complex times, and how it ended up in an Ethiopian gurade reflects just how these blades had working lives far beyond their original inception into mounts.

As Ren Ren has noted, Schnizler & Kirschbaum were Solingen makers:

Philipp Jakob Schnizler & Wilhelm B.S.Kirschbaum were partners in Grafata (1787-1811) and Solingen (1811-1864).

Here I would note that the British M1796 light cavalry blade was tremendously effective, so much so that Napoleon declared it 'barbaric'. However it influenced Germany into producing their own M1811 'Blucher sabel' which closely followed it in design.

In 1808 as noted, these British swords were sent to Spain and other allied countries. They entered numbers of trade networks with many even turning up in America.

Here the complexity comes in, and as you have suggested, the engraved script is very much as used by the well known London cutler J.J.Runkel who brought blades in from Solingen. His blades were typically inscribed with his name on back of the blade in the English manner of the times. From last quarter 18th c into 19th makers typically stamped names in this location.

However officers swords were often inscribed on the blades in this fashion. The script and wording on this blade seem Spanish, but might be French as well. During the Napoleonic campaigns, it should be remembered that Napoleon actually occupied Solingen . There were large stockpiles of blades coming out of Solingen, and noted rivalry included the firm of Schnitzler & Kirschbaum.

French blades were also often marked in script. The wording 'en Solingen and en Alemania' of course means Solingen in Germany. Fabrica by Schnitzler & Kirschbaum =made by. I am no linguist but this wording seems to intend to allude the blade's manufacture by this firm.

As Solingen was occupied by Napoleon's forces in this time, could it have been perhaps inscribed as in French manner of the time (c.1811-14). At this time Napoleons brother Jerome was declared King of Westphalia, and his army may likely have been receiving blades/sabres from these stockpiles of blades and so marked.

I think this gurade might hold a blade with a most interesting past.

In this same fashion, I have a M1796 sabre by Bate of Birmingham, which turned up with CsA markings. These turned out to be from the armory at Castel san Angelo at the Vatican and used by forces involved in defending during the unification of Italy in 1870s.
These swords also have been found in Civil War contexts, and even Native American instances.

The blades (and often the swords if still intact) often tell us great stories!

midelburgo · 19th March 2019, 07:30 PM

This is a British 1796 blade marked CRAVEN with a Spanish hilt (1825 model I think). They were used in the first succession (carlista) civil war (c1836).

The carlista side had to find weapons outside of Spain.

Jim McDougall · 19th March 2019, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by midelburgo

This is a British 1796 blade marked CRAVEN with a Spanish hilt (1825 model I think). They were used in the first succession (carlista) civil war (c1836).

The carlista side had to find weapons outside of Spain.

Excellent and perfect illustration!!! Thank you. Thomas Craven was one of the early makers of both 1796 light and heavy cavalry blades.

roanoa · 19th March 2019, 09:13 PM

MY BAD..... I guess I should have posted measurements. The blade is neither 1796 British not 1811 Blucher. It is much lighter. All light cavalry swords (hussar type) look pretty much the same, but both the British 1796 and the Prussian/German 1811 are MASSIVE... I though that the picture was self explanatory as far as size was concerned, but I guess I was wrong. I'll posted measurements, if needed.

Jim McDougall · 20th March 2019, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roanoa

MY BAD..... I guess I should have posted measurements. The blade is neither 1796 British not 1811 Blucher. It is much lighter. All light cavalry swords (hussar type) look pretty much the same, but both the British 1796 and the Prussian/German 1811 are MASSIVE... I though that the picture was self explanatory as far as size was concerned, but I guess I was wrong. I'll posted measurements, if needed.

Actually many of the M1796 blades for officers sabres were often much smaller than the troopers versions, I once had an Osborn officers sabre which had a blade of about 29". It was quite a contrast to the massive troopers blades as you note.

Still this could be as has been discussed, a blade from Germany intended for officers. It certainly would not be a British blade with these engraved markings as I think Midelburgo is right, there is no reason why these should not be authentic.

18th March 2019, 09:01 PM	#1
roanoa Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 235	Ethiopian sword/spanish blade Picked up this sword with an interesting blade. It is German made (Solingen) by Schnitt??? & Kirschbaum. Writhing is in Spanish which, I suppose, means that it was made for a Spanish speaking country, either Spain or one South America country other than Brazil. Any thought, anyone, about model, age, country? Attached Images

19th March 2019, 07:30 PM	#8
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 257	This is a British 1796 blade marked CRAVEN with a Spanish hilt (1825 model I think). They were used in the first succession (carlista) civil war (c1836). The carlista side had to find weapons outside of Spain. Attached Images

18th March 2019, 09:30 PM	#2
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Hi Ron, I don´t have any thought in this case ... Just only - that the diversity of Abyssinian gorade blades is countless....

18th March 2019, 10:02 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Interesting attempt at script on this one, an amalgam of in Solingen then in Alemania (=same thing) then Fabrica etc. This is a M1796 British cavalry blade with spurious inscription which seems odd as this would hardly pass as legitimate. As always as well noted by Martin......the anomalies in blades mounted in these Ethiopian gurades much as throughout Red Sea entrepots are infinite. This extends to so many ethnographic cultural situations. These M1796 blades, while typically marked on the back of the blade with makers name, seem to have been produced in volume as 'blanks' in some cases.

19th March 2019, 12:03 PM	#4
MForde Member Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: UK Posts: 36	The fuller and curve don't quite fit the 1796 troopers' sabre so perhaps it was an officer's 'fighting' version, devoid of decoration. Certainly, very similar and quite possibly mid-Victorian.

19th March 2019, 01:27 PM	#5
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 257	Spain used a lot of 1796 after 1808, either passed by the British or purchased by many patriotic corporations. I do not see why it should be spurious. The script is a bit Runkel-like.

19th March 2019, 04:56 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	You are quite right Midelburgo, and I thank you for noting this and prompting a second look here...……...this blade may indeed have a far more interesting history than I had estimated. It comes from complex times, and how it ended up in an Ethiopian gurade reflects just how these blades had working lives far beyond their original inception into mounts. As Ren Ren has noted, Schnizler & Kirschbaum were Solingen makers: Philipp Jakob Schnizler & Wilhelm B.S.Kirschbaum were partners in Grafata (1787-1811) and Solingen (1811-1864). Here I would note that the British M1796 light cavalry blade was tremendously effective, so much so that Napoleon declared it 'barbaric'. However it influenced Germany into producing their own M1811 'Blucher sabel' which closely followed it in design. In 1808 as noted, these British swords were sent to Spain and other allied countries. They entered numbers of trade networks with many even turning up in America. Here the complexity comes in, and as you have suggested, the engraved script is very much as used by the well known London cutler J.J.Runkel who brought blades in from Solingen. His blades were typically inscribed with his name on back of the blade in the English manner of the times. From last quarter 18th c into 19th makers typically stamped names in this location. However officers swords were often inscribed on the blades in this fashion. The script and wording on this blade seem Spanish, but might be French as well. During the Napoleonic campaigns, it should be remembered that Napoleon actually occupied Solingen . There were large stockpiles of blades coming out of Solingen, and noted rivalry included the firm of Schnitzler & Kirschbaum. French blades were also often marked in script. The wording 'en Solingen and en Alemania' of course means Solingen in Germany. Fabrica by Schnitzler & Kirschbaum =made by. I am no linguist but this wording seems to intend to allude the blade's manufacture by this firm. As Solingen was occupied by Napoleon's forces in this time, could it have been perhaps inscribed as in French manner of the time (c.1811-14). At this time Napoleons brother Jerome was declared King of Westphalia, and his army may likely have been receiving blades/sabres from these stockpiles of blades and so marked. I think this gurade might hold a blade with a most interesting past. In this same fashion, I have a M1796 sabre by Bate of Birmingham, which turned up with CsA markings. These turned out to be from the armory at Castel san Angelo at the Vatican and used by forces involved in defending during the unification of Italy in 1870s. These swords also have been found in Civil War contexts, and even Native American instances. The blades (and often the swords if still intact) often tell us great stories!

19th March 2019, 09:13 PM	#10
roanoa Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 235	MY BAD..... I guess I should have posted measurements. The blade is neither 1796 British not 1811 Blucher. It is much lighter. All light cavalry swords (hussar type) look pretty much the same, but both the British 1796 and the Prussian/German 1811 are MASSIVE... I though that the picture was self explanatory as far as size was concerned, but I guess I was wrong. I'll posted measurements, if needed.