My first kris :)

[migueldiaz]

Hi all,

Am new around here and am very new to collecting edged weapons for that matter.

So finally I bought this kris which kept appearing in my dreams ever since I saw its pics.

The hilt is gold-"plated" with repoussed okir design. Pommel is ivory and blade's laminated structure can be discerned.

Overall length is 630 mm [24.8"] and blade length is 512 mm [20.1"].

Attached are pics sent by the seller before I made the purchase.

Would appreciate any comments and observations ... even negative as I guess we are all here to learn.

Thanks in advance!

[apolaki]

WOW! that is soooooo beautiful. i wish i could find one of that nature 2 one day...

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by apolaki

WOW! that is soooooo beautiful. i wish i could find one of that nature 2 one day...

apolaki, thanks.

it's a joy to hold and to behold

to all forumites,

i have some questions, please.

in the subject kris, the lamination is there all right, but i'm sure it will not be apparent to the untrained eye. me being a novice, i have to look closely myself.

now i've seen in this forum pics of a lot of blades (barung, kris, etc.) with lamination that's very pronounced.

so my [newbie] question/s are:

[1] is the lamination in some blades more apparent because of some deliberate act? (e.g., polishing, or etching if that's the right term);

[2] is the value of a blade enhanced if such lamination features are made more apparent? or is this just a matter of personal preference and nothing more?

[3] what's the big deal on laminated blades in the first place? in the specific case of moro blades, if they are not laminated would that mean that the blades are fairly recent?

[4] how do you make the lamination come out -- would the procedure described by rick be the one, or was rick referring to a procedure for another context? rick, hope you can comment again!

i have dug up old posts and i can't find direct answers to the above. if they have been discussed in the past, can i just kindly request for the links then.

thanks again to all.

[apolaki]

I have a general question about lamination.. what does it mean?

The blade of my moro kris is very dull, its not sharp at all. i wonder if it was laminated? lol sorry, im very novice myself.. Thanks for enlightening me..

[kai]

Hello Miguel,

That's a long thread - here's the specfic post:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...5&postcount=16
There are more recipes to be found on this forum.

Yes, this procedure will bring out laminations (layers of steel which show how the steel got forged).

Depending on the blade's surface (if corroded), you may want to do a little polishing first before moving on to etching.

I'd also stipulate that there is no point in neutralizing diluted vinegar (I prefer technical grade acetic acid and am usually using 1% which is a weak solution): Just heating the blade (with a hair dryer, after wiping on some oil!) will evaporate all remaining acid; just make sure that no vinegar remains in any crevices (just heat those areas longer).

I'll come back to the other questions later.

Regards,
Kai

[migueldiaz]

Hello Kai,

Thanks for the reply!

Am looking forward to your (and the others') further comments.

Best regards,

MD

PS - So that's how you handpick a post, with the "postcount" suffix. Thanks for the tip

[Bill]

Hi Miguel,
It's a interesting sword. The blade is nicely done. It's a copy of what Cato refers to a "18C". I'm not sure where it was made The file work in the center looks like Maguindanao or Maranao but elephant's head looks more Sulu.
The blade is older then the hilt. You can see where the old baca-baca (stirrup) once was. The blade is likely 100 years or older but it's hard to tell from pictures & the fact it was coping a old style.
I bought a small dress kris from Ramon Villegas but can't find his appraisal at the moment. The hilt work it similar and likely done by the same craftsman. If I recall correctly he said the kris I have was Maranao & done in the early 1960's. My blade is hand forged but not nearly as nice as yours or the "old" work in general. I've seen several swords that appear to have the same quality blade, hilt work & ivory pommel as mine. Your ivory pommel is different & perhaps made earlier then the 60's, hard to say.
For the most part, I think the coins in the scabbard are also most common in 1960's work & latter. The rattan looks older then that but I've also seen quite a few scabbards made in the 60's that are similar.
Villegas used to have a numismatic shop in Makati, bet you he could give you much better detail then myself. By the way, can you describe the coins?

[kai]

Hello Bill,

The blade is nicely done.

Note that there's still a little bit of silver inlay attached close to the lower asang-asang. I'm not holding my breath but you may want to try etching the blade.

It's a copy of what Cato refers to a "18C".

I also think that this is a revival piece - possibly dating from after the Span.-Am. war and before 1930. Certainly not what Cato refers to as 18th c. (the curves are not old style, too) and more likely to be early 20th c.

I'm not sure where it was made The file work in the center looks like Maguindanao or Maranao but elephant's head looks more Sulu.

The pics are not taken from directly above - I believe the blade is Maguindanao indeed.

The blade is older then the hilt. You can see where the old baca-baca (stirrup) once was.

Yes, IMHO they recycled an older pommel and added the flashy grip section (done in Marawi?). Also the asang-asang are not attached correctly.

If this would be my piece, I'd be tempted to tear the hilt apart, to attach the asang-asang correctly, to add a plain silver ferrule, and to try my hands at a decent grip wrapping.

Your ivory pommel is different & perhaps made earlier then the 60's, hard to say.

They are often artificially aged. However, the carving seems to be good quality on this one; I wouldn't be surprised if it had the same age as the blade.

For the most part, I think the coins in the scabbard are also most common in 1960's work & latter. The rattan looks older then that but I've also seen quite a few scabbards made in the 60's that are similar.

Coming out of the Philippines, the scabbard can't be too old for such a piece: Post-WW2 but there's always the chance that it may have been done "yesterday"...

BTW, some of the blades coming out of the Philippines nowadays show a surface hinting at laminations but are apparently monosteel. They have separate gangya but I suspect that they may be newly done and etched. It was already known that blades with separate gangya continue to be produced for local use; the blades mentioned seem to be a response to the foreign collectors' market though.

Regards,
Kai

[Bill]

Hi Kai, The stirrup on mine is nonfunctional, it is held in place by the hilt. Miguel's stirrups & mine look like the work of the same craftsman.
While some/much of the work in this time period was likely for high end consumers, it's not tourist quality or even meant as a high end souvenir.
Look at the dust cover on Moro Swords. I believe it to be from the time period, 1960's & similar craftsmanship. While these swords may not have been intended for battle, I believe they were meant for local use as dress swords or even gift/presentation. For that reason, I would not consider replacing the hilt/dress. Besides, the quality of work is really good. Some tourist pieces have the same look but no where the quality.
Sadly the sheath does give it a tourist feel but it also is likely "legit", IMO, as a example of the 1960's. While we likely will never know, it is very plausible this sword/sheath was worn, just like it is. IMO, it makes the whole package ethnographic.
The blade in my small sword is not the center piece but it is razor sharp & certainly could be used as a weapon.

[kai]

Hello Bill,

While these swords may not have been intended for battle, I believe they were meant for local use as dress swords or even gift/presentation. For that reason, I would not consider replacing the hilt/dress. Besides, the quality of work is really good.

Well, I still feel that the blade deserves better than that "ferrule" and grip.

While the whole ensemble may have been worn by a Moro (I kinda doubt it - the grip looks very new; what's the whitish stuff beneath?), the work just isn't up to the old standards. Obviously, a lot of traditional skills got lost and people seem to have focused on flashy features. It may be genuine for late 20th c. Moro culture - it falls short of traditional Moro culture though, I guess...

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Miguel,

[1] is the lamination in some blades more apparent because of some deliberate act? (e.g., polishing, or etching if that's the right term);

Yes, that's usually enhanced by recent etching; there is some discussion wether Moro blades were etched by default traditionally: There are some assertions that blades were etched to keep a drawn blade from reflecting sun light and possibly warn the victim of an ambush. There also are reports that blades were polished shiny as a preparation of a juramentado. This isn't necessarily a contradiction though (practical vs. ritual).

[2] is the value of a blade enhanced if such lamination features are made more apparent? or is this just a matter of personal preference and nothing more?

Probably personal preference/curiosity as well as a matter of being historically correct. Special lamination patterns will also imply a higher status blade.

[3] what's the big deal on laminated blades in the first place? in the specific case of moro blades, if they are not laminated would that mean that the blades are fairly recent?

Laminated blades are usually not merely intended for show but business; cheap tourist blades are always done from monosteel (by forging or often mere stock removal). There are a few antique Moro kris with honest monosteel blades because European steel was of high quality and didn't needed the traditional welding procedure to produce high quality blades. OTOH, some keris sundang are currently produced in Indonesia with high-contrast pamor. However, the rule of thumb still is that laminated blades are old/antique.

Regards,
Kai

[migueldiaz]

Hello Kai and Bill,

Wow, you guys are awesome ... I am not worthy

Many thanks for those observations on the kris and answers to the queries! Reviewing the kris with those info in mind, it certainly gives me a new perspective and greater depth in appreciating the piece.

So if for any reason you sirs will be in Manila, don't hesitate to tell me in advance. I'll certainly treat you to the largest steak in town

I think I am definitely hooked into this new pursuit of mine.

Thanks again and I'll get those other info (on the coins, etc.). Will also do the etching soon (among other to-do's like trace Ramon Villegas).

MD

[Spunjer]

hi miguel

welcome, pare..
at the base of the handle, the brass looking thingy; it reminds me of the bagung lipunan singko centavo coin. or is it?

also, between the handle and the pommel, there appears to be a clear, milky substance. is just a reflection from the cam, or is it glue?
if you can remove the blade from the handle (with heat) you should be able to tell if the wood is fairly new or old.

[Bill]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Bill,


Obviously, a lot of traditional skills got lost and people seem to have focused on flashy features. It may be genuine for late 20th c. Moro culture - it falls short of traditional Moro culture though, I guess...

Regards,
Kai

Hi Kia, I guess that by mid 20thC the "traditional" warrior culture was going through a dramatic change in weapons & the wearing of swords was shifting in populous areas to limited special events or even wall hangers. So one would expect to see the flash & not the wear.

Hi Miguel. I've always enjoyed Manila & might take you up on your offer someday. By the way, we innocently use the word "Moro", coined from the book written by Robert Cato.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Bill

By the way, we innocently use the word "Moro", coined from the book written by Robert Cato.

So do they .
http://eprints.qut.edu.au/archive/00003494/

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

hi miguel

welcome, pare..
at the base of the handle, the brass looking thingy; it reminds me of the bagung lipunan singko centavo coin. or is it?

also, between the handle and the pommel, there appears to be a clear, milky substance. is just a reflection from the cam, or is it glue?
if you can remove the blade from the handle (with heat) you should be able to tell if the wood is fairly new or old.

Hi Spunjer,

Thanks for the welcome, pare ko!

On the brass thingy between the hilt and the gangya, I compared the number of luks on that old Phil. coin (below) vs. the one in the kris ... hence, it's not that coin that was used (or any other coin for that matter I think).

On the white thing beneath the pommel, I checked and yes, it looks like it's glue. So it looks like the pommel is a recent addition?

On removing the blade, let me gather some more courage first, hehe.

Thanks and mabuhay [cheers]!

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by Bill

Hi Miguel. I've always enjoyed Manila & might take you up on your offer someday. By the way, we innocently use the word "Moro", coined from the book written by Robert Cato.

Originally Posted by Rick

So do they .
http://eprints.qut.edu.au/archive/00003494/

Hi Bill,

I'm serious If you'll be in town just send me a note in advance and let's continue talking about ethnic blades over a good restaurant in Makati (the prime business district).

Hello Rick,

Thanks too for that note on the use of the word "Moro".

Actually when we were kids (am in my mid-40s now), our parents told us never to use that word to refer to our Muslim brothers in the south. It's supposed to be derogatory.

But recently and as you pointed out, it doesn't have that connotation anymore.

Like the secessionist Muslims in Mindanao used to call themselves the Moro National Liberation Front (MNLF). More recently, the organization is called MILF, in which the "M" refers to "Moro" again I think ... and yes, I know that in the US the latter acronym stands for something less altruistic!

[Gonzalo G]

Yes, it means "Moro Islamic Liberation Front"....
Regards

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Yes, it means "Moro Islamic Liberation Front"....
Regards

Hello Gonzalo,

Thanks. And the Muslims in Mindanao also call themselves (and their homeland) "Bangsamoro".

"Bangsa" in Malay ("bansa" in Tagalog) means homeland or nation. So yes, "Moro" has been adapted by the Mindanao Muslims as the preferred term to describe themselves and their homeland.

Regards.

[VANDOO]

I WOULD ALSO SUSPECT THE KRIS MAY BE ONE MADE UP OF A MIX OF OLDER AND NEWER PARTS. THE REASONS FOR THIS STATED BY THE OTHER FORUM MEMBERS SOUND VALID TO ME. IT COULD HAVE BEEN REFITTED WITH THE FLASHY GRIP AND SCABBARD LATER AND THE ORIGINAL IVORY POMEL AND BLADE USED. THIS WAS NOT UNCOMMON AS THE OTHER PARTS DO WEAR OUT AND NEED REPLACEING IN NORMAL USE. THESE KRIS WERE OFTEN PASSED DOWN THRU THE FAMILY AND AS WEALTH WAS AQUIRED THEY WERE OFTEN ENHANCED WITH IVORY, GOLD ,ECT. TO SHOW STATUS. THEY WERE NO LONGER USED FOR FIGHTING BUT DID HAVE A PLACE AS A FAMILY HEIRLOOM WORN ON SPECIAL OCCASIONS OR IN CEREMONIES. CONGRADULATIONS ITS A NICE ITEM

SINCE THE TERM MORO HAS BEEN BROUGHT UP I WILL ASK A QUESTION I HAVE BEEN NEEDING AN ANSWER TO. I AM WRITING A HISTORICAL FICTION STORY WHICH HAS MORO AS WELL AS DAYAK PEOPLE IN IT. I HAVE BEEN WONDERING IF IT WOULD OFFEND ANY GROUP IF I USE THE WORD MORO TO DESCRIBE MY CHARACTERS PEOPLE? IF IT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE THEN I WOULD APPRECIATE ANY OTHER SUGGESTIONS OF A TERM TO USE IN ITS PLACE. OR PERHAPS I SHOULD JUST MAKE UP A FICTIOUS NAME? SEEMS A SHAME THOUGH AS THEY ARE THE HERO'S OF THE STORY. THANKS IN ADVANCE.

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

... CONGRADULATIONS ITS A NICE ITEM

SINCE THE TERM MORO HAS BEEN BROUGHT UP I WILL ASK A QUESTION I HAVE BEEN NEEDING AN ANSWER TO. I AM WRITING A HISTORICAL FICTION STORY WHICH HAS MORO AS WELL AS DAYAK PEOPLE IN IT. I HAVE BEEN WONDERING IF IT WOULD OFFEND ANY GROUP IF I USE THE WORD MORO TO DESCRIBE MY CHARACTERS PEOPLE? IF IT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE THEN I WOULD APPRECIATE ANY OTHER SUGGESTIONS OF A TERM TO USE IN ITS PLACE. OR PERHAPS I SHOULD JUST MAKE UP A FICTIOUS NAME? SEEMS A SHAME THOUGH AS THEY ARE THE HERO'S OF THE STORY. THANKS IN ADVANCE.

Hi Vandoo,

Thanks also for your valued opinion. I appreciate it

On the use of the term "Moro" to refer to a person or people, specifically the Muslims in southern Philippines, no it will not be offensive.

I can say that definitively because I just asked a while ago a Muslim college buddy who is now a high-ranking government official in Mindanao. And he would of course be very much aware of the sensitivities of his people.

He categorically said that it is ok to use "Moro" to mean the people or Native Muslims of southern Philippines. Those were his exact words actually.

I also asked him if there is an alternative term that can be used. He didn't give any as "Moro" is fine as is.

So when do we check out Amazon.com for that book?

Regards.

[VANDOO]

THANKS FOR THE POSITIVE INFO ON THE USE OF THE TERM MORO, I AM GLAD IT IS AN ACCEPTIBLE NAME TO USE. AS TO WHEN THE BOOK WILL BE FINISHED OR IF IT WILL EVER SEE PUBLICATION
I AM MAKEING STEADY PROGRESS OF LATE BUT STILL HAVE A LOT MORE PAGES TO GO TO MAKE IT THE PROPER SIZE FOR A NOVEL. I DON'T HAVE A CLUE AS TO HOW TO GET SOMETHING PUBLISHED AND WILL SEEK ADVICE AND GIVE IT A TRY. IF NOT SUCESSFUL PERHAPS I WILL GET HELP TO PUT IT ON THE WEB WHERE IT CAN BE READ. I AM JUST WRITING IT FOR FUN BUT IF ITS POSSIBLE TO MAKE A LITTLE MONEY THAT WILL BE EVEN BETTER PERHAPS I CAN BUY SOME MORE SWORDS.

[kai]

Hello Barry,

AFAIK, the term Dayak/Dyak has also evolved from a mere catch-all label to a name which is acceptable to use. At least there have been political parties in Indonesia utilizing Dayak in their names...

OTOH, the majority of the readers won't be acquainted with Moro nor Dayak. Since both of these groups are pretty diverse, wouldn't it make more sense to just focus on a specific ethnic group (like Tausug and Murut) in your novel?

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Bill,

I guess that by mid 20thC the "traditional" warrior culture was going through a dramatic change in weapons & the wearing of swords was shifting in populous areas to limited special events or even wall hangers. So one would expect to see the flash & not the wear.

Yes, although I'm inclined to think of this as a downhill trend due to colonial powers and decadence rather than being the expression of a continuously developing culture. Much of the skills seem to have been lost after the Span.-Am. war and, especially, during the early 20th c. After WW2 there seems to have been a wave of flashy innovations regarding dress and souvenir items.

It's interesting to note though that kris were used in guerilla warfare well into the 1970s (or 80s?) which makes them one of the last traditional swords utilized in modern times...

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Miguel,

Thanks, I'll gladly let you know when I make it to Manila (didn't realized you being from the Philippines) - always nice to meet up with forumites! I'm afraid having to admit that I prefer food which can be tackled with chop sticks rather than swords though...

On the white thing beneath the pommel, I checked and yes, it looks like it's glue. So it looks like the pommel is a recent addition?

I still think that it's most likely the middle section (grip) which got replaced or pimped up. As Bill mentioned, done fairly nicely for this type but it does look later than blade and pommel; the "brass looking thingy"/"ferrule" is certainly "over the edge" and not needed IMHO.

On removing the blade, let me gather some more courage first, hehe.

Just heat the blade with a candle (or other weak flame) for a while; make sure you don't cut yourself! If the blade got also attached by the modern glue, it will be very difficult to remove it though.

Regards,
Kai

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Miguel,

Thanks, I'll gladly let you know when I make it to Manila (didn't realized you being from the Philippines) - always nice to meet up with forumites! I'm afraid having to admit that I prefer food which can be tackled with chop sticks rather than swords though...

Kai (et al.), yes just let me know when you'll be in town.

To make it more equitable, all those forumites who commented on this post of mine when they get to Manila will get a full course dinner ... while those who didn't comment will still be welcome ... but they will just get a mug of beer or any drink of their choice

If your prefer to go "arnis" (chopsticks) instead of swords, there's a lot of good Chinese and Japanese restaurants here also

Originally Posted by kai

I still think that it's most likely the middle section (grip) which got replaced or pimped up. As Bill mentioned, done fairly nicely for this type but it does look later than blade and pommel; the "brass looking thingy"/"ferrule" is certainly "over the edge" and not needed IMHO.

Ok, thanks for the additional comments.

Originally Posted by kai

Just heat the blade with a candle (or other weak flame) for a while; make sure you don't cut yourself! If the blade got also attached by the modern glue, it will be very difficult to remove it though. Regards, Kai

Copy ... and I think I should definitely do this one of these days.

Thanks again for the comments!!

[migueldiaz]

Talking about Moro weapons, Krieger [Bulletin 137 of The Smithsonian Institution: The Collection of Primitive Weapons and Armor of the Philippine Islands in the United States National Museum by Herbert W. Krieger, 1926] identified 64 types, as follows:

1. cabil
2. ompac
3. tanculo
4. paruar
5. capipis
6. pamale
7. sia
8. corang
9. agong
10. togo
11. togoiran
12. cotlong
13. pamarang
14. sayap
15. sayapi
16. colingtan
17. pauli
18. busoc
19. tunot
20. lantaca
21. dantunot
22. sabilulan
23. dampig
24. yrong
25. moro mindanos
26. taming
27. calasac
28. lunar
29. mimpil
30. duyar agong
31. duyar colingtan
32. duyar sabilulan
33. lugay cotlong
34. tombag
35. dilo
36. tinagoo
37. budiar
38. pisao
39. pangogam
40. kilapris
41. alina
42. compay
43. saganab
44. kris
45. talibong
46. lanti
47. badong
48. zayang
49. ligua
50. sipul
51. puro
52. tinamban
53. aguial
54. kris [another type apparently]
55. tabas [same as panabas?]
56. campilan
57. datupani
58. singari
59. badao
60. balasion
61. narani
62. sandata
63. carimay
64. tupat

Given that for instance the bangkung and the barung were not listed, then certainly they must have been called by other names in the above.

The other inference that may be surmised from the list is that perhaps some of them must be closely related to each other, such that there are not really 64 major weapon types.

Anyway, would anybody know whether there is a particular item in the above that is a class on its own, as in it is not a variant of the others?

Thanks.

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by Bill

I guess that by mid 20thC the "traditional" warrior culture was going through a dramatic change in weapons & the wearing of swords was shifting in populous areas to limited special events or even wall hangers. So one would expect to see the flash & not the wear.

Hi Bill,

I agree of course with your observation.

Occasionally however, blade combat still happens in the battlefield, at least in Mindanao.

I myself found it strange, but please see this blog article .

On the pic [below] showing the soldier [one Sgt. Prado] holding a kris and a "ginunting", a commenter said:

"The kris pictured was one captured from a rebel who went blade to blade fighting with Sgt. Prado and lost not only his kris but his life to the [Phil. Marines Force] Recon Panday [bladesmith] meaning this man not only makes the Blade but has used it in modern day combat and in a Blade to blade duel with the spoils going to the victor. The Ginunting you have pictured is the recon version whose evolution was created from the tests of true combat. it is quite different than the civilian type Ginunting ..."

I don't personally know Sgt. Prado but I have friends who know him. Apparently he is well known here in the Philippines.

Makes me just wonder how exactly such sword fights transpire. Like did they both ran out of bullets first and then a challenge was made? Or was it spontaneous? It's for sure a very intriguing event.

And I also wonder how often such sword battles happen in the battlefield say in present day Mindanao

[Bill]

Hi Miguel,
Interesting kris the marine has. It looks like it has 2 guards & is a watered blade. No idea about his contest, if it is PR stunt or was a real event. I do know that there is a code in some places in the PI where sword duels or assassinations with a sword have some acceptance where use of a firearm would not be acceptable. Apparently retaliation (code) limited to means of prior incident.
Yes there is no doubt that the US military & varies general instructions & eventually the executive order in 1911 of disarmament changed a good generation or two of the Moro traditions.
While I doubt swords (manufacture/use) totally disappeared, their revival after WWII was altered. Where a farmer or someone in a remote village would be concerned about a blade for functions of both work & a weapon, a city person would be more concerned about a symbol of present status. I'd consider both ethnographic & each a part of history. While we generally consider "WWII" blades as cerimonial, I'd also guess that a few of them settled disagreements.
The commercial aspect has been around since the Spanish but post WWII also saw a explosion in tourist items. Plenty of raw materials (damaged/abandoned equipment) and plenty of customers (service men), who didn't spend enough time, in the PI, to know the genuine items.
So there is a blur between ethnographic & tourist. Some is blatant, while some, as can be seen in the present posts, is a personal opinion.

[Bill]

Here is a link to some great photos by Bobby Timonera. He posts here occasionally, so maybe he will comment.

http://www.pbase.com/timonera/tugaya&page=all