Sumatran / Bugis ID

Moshah · 27th October 2009, 06:26 AM

Good day guys.

This might be a rather foolish thing to ask.

But then again, I was neither good at IDing blade's origin, so here it is.

Could you guys ID whether this blade's a Sumatran or a Bugis?

It was in the posession of a German living in the Indonesia, who bought this 40 years ago there. Perhaps some of you guys have seen this blade...

Thanks in advance.

Moshah

David · 27th October 2009, 03:20 PM

These two things are not exclusive. It is possible to have a Bugis blade that is also Sumatran.

I can certainly see the Bugis influence in this blade. Beautiful hilt as well. What does the sheath look like?

BluErf · 27th October 2009, 05:45 PM

hmmm... the blade form looks familiar...

Sajen · 27th October 2009, 06:09 PM

Can be from both origin.

Moshah · 28th October 2009, 02:31 AM

David, purposely I didn't attached the sheath because it suggests bona-fide Bugis..

However, sheath can be deceiving, I never relied on them alone..

Kai Wee, which form is familiar to u? Mind sharing it here?

BTW, could it be Palembang?

Sajen · 28th October 2009, 02:53 AM

Bugis Riau?

Which material is the handle?

sajen

Moshah · 28th October 2009, 03:33 AM

Hi Sajen,

The hilt is sea ivory, I've been told. Looks like a Palembang hilt, wasn't it?

I don't know very much about Bugis keris, didn't see very much good example as well, but I feel that this piece was no Bugis.

Was the sogokan is familiar to bugis keris?

BTW, the hilt, close-up:

David · 28th October 2009, 04:41 AM

Wow, the hilt is really sweet!
Moshah, the Bugis were all over the area. They had settlements everywhere. There were Bugis in Sumatra as well as many other areas. The Bugis were a seafaring peole. They got around. But the sheath looks Sulawesi to me.

Sajen · 29th October 2009, 12:54 AM

Very nice hilt but don't need to be from Palembang, every other region of Sumatra is possible, my 2 cent opinion.

kai · 30th October 2009, 11:39 AM

Hello Moshah,

Congrats, nice keris!

The carving work on this nice Jawa Demam is not typical for Palembang and does show some Bugis influence IMHO (carving details like the pattern on the throat).

Also, I wouldn't rule out a Sulawesi origin of the blade. Have been wrong before though...

Regards,
Kai

Moshah · 30th October 2009, 05:48 PM

Well fellas, it ain't mine yet...

However, the hilt's carving is something really new to me. And it looks like modernized motives being used. Pardon my knowledge, but that's what I see.

Is the carving only have Bugis' motives on the throat, instead of the whole carving works, Kai?

Yeah, David, Bugises were seafaring people, and now I understand why their influence is everywhere...BTW which part of the sheath are Sulawesi? The pendok? or the sampir / wronko?

Sajen · 30th October 2009, 06:38 PM

I still vote for Bugis Riau, the keris have Bugis and Sumatra influence. Warangka and pendokok looks Bugis and pendok looks sumatran while the hilt have influence from both and the blade seems to be sumatran. I think that it is a very nice old keris, so far you can see it by pictures.

Detlef

Moshah · 30th October 2009, 07:00 PM

I believe it is a good keris too, detlef. (or should i called u sajen?)

If I was not mistaken, I can see that the blade has been warang / etched / stained. If it was a bugis-riau keris, do it still need the warangan? Didn't by undid the warangan, the pamor can't be seen clearly like this?

What pattern of pamor is that? I think I've seen such pamor in some sumatran kerises, but I dunno what name it goes...

If it was an old keris, it was so lucky to be in right hands, since very little trace of damages can be found there...

Sajen · 30th October 2009, 09:51 PM

Moshah,

Detlef is fine, sajen is my user name.

I don't know if you have seen this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8761

Ok, it's a Sumatra keris (like I believe that's your's blade also) and I think that your blade have a very nice pamor and it don't will look nice like this without warangan. I don't know if Bugis blades have had originally a warangan but BluErf for example have a great knowledge about this and will be able to answer this question. I personally like it by keris from all region when they etched. Like you see in the link above the pamor is better visible.

The pamor on your keris seems to be some sort of Wengkon Untu Walang, but I am not very sure and I am not an expert.

Like I write before, it's a very nice keris in a good state and I would be happy when it belongs to my collection!

Regards,

Detlef

Moshah · 30th October 2009, 10:20 PM

I think you got a point there, Detlef.

Because of the norm, I've seen most bugis keris without its etching and on certain point, it is nice to see it like that.

But if the pamor is traceable and outstanding, etching seems to be just fine, as in case of your palembang gonjo iras blade...

Meanwhile in this case, perhaps do nothing is best

It is a keris in a good state, but do it really have some ages? It doesn't look new, nor did it looks too old as well...

Sajen · 30th October 2009, 10:49 PM

I think that it's an old one, but very difficult to say only by pictures.

BTW, which material is the pendok?

Moshah · 31st October 2009, 03:22 AM

I think it is silver, since there are blacky patch all over it. I could be mamas as well, but I have very limited knowledge on identifying one.

I must have some age, but detlef how could you ID that?

Moshah · 31st October 2009, 06:32 AM

I just got some opinion regarding of this keris:

The hilt and wronko is Bugis. Sheath is Sumatran.

Blade is Javanese, of dhapur Menderang, pamor Unthu Walang.

Somebody of extensive knowledge of Javanese keris might can approve this theory or not.

As my knowledge are limited, I wouldn't say it's a Javanese blade because it doesn't look like one.

I might be extremely wrong, however....

David · 31st October 2009, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshah

Yeah, David, Bugises were seafaring people, and now I understand why their influence is everywhere...BTW which part of the sheath are Sulawesi? The pendok? or the sampir / wronko?

Here is a Sulawesi keris. The motifs on the pendok are extremely similar to yours.

A. G. Maisey · 31st October 2009, 01:34 PM

It is not a Javanese blade. Having said that I will add that from the pic I don't know what it is. There are Eastern Island elements, Bugis elements, and Sumatra elements---even a touch of Bali. At the moment I wouldn't be prepared to back anything.

Silver is very easy to ID with test acid. If you do not have your own test acid, a jeweller can ID silver in two seconds flat.

The difference in value between silver of any grade and mamas, nickel silver, white brass, silver plate, and any other look-a-likes is immense. A bottle of test acid costs almost zilch. Fifty years ago I decided that self protection was the best policy and bought a little bottle of test acid, I've never been without one since.

Personally, I think this keris is a dealers melange---pieces from different places mated for purpose of sale.

Moshah · 31st October 2009, 02:07 PM

Whoa, David, now that is surely a Sumatran sheath! It is really identical!

Alan, when u mentioned easter island, now i remember why this piece reminds me of something else.

It surely has numerous different influences, but still now we can't really confirm where the blade should be coming from.

Sajen · 31st October 2009, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshah

Whoa, David, now that is surely a Sumatran sheath! It is really identical!

Alan, when u mentioned easter island, now i remember why this piece reminds me of something else.

It surely has numerous different influences, but still now we can't really confirm where the blade should be coming from.

Not a Sumatra pendok, it is a Bugis like David want to show you!

Detlef

Gustav · 31st October 2009, 04:07 PM

In some features similar keris lurus from Malay Art Gallery's sold items: http://www.geocities.com/keris4u/ker...u_seaivory.htm
with pejetan (slightly different), sogokan, eroded greneng with ron dha nunut and eroded jenggot on a similar kembang kacang, tikel alis and sraweyan. Probably somebody can correct me.

Also for this keris blade a Sulawesi provenience is probably very questionably. It looks more like a bugis influenced culture and not bugis to me. But I must apologise, I simply have not enough knowledge to build an opinion.

A. G. Maisey · 31st October 2009, 09:23 PM

Easter Island??

Moshah · 1st November 2009, 03:56 AM

My bad, Detlef. What I meant to say is that David has shown me an identical motives to the pendok of the keris that I am posting..

Hi Gustav. Thank you very much on your opinion. I can see that you have valid ground about that. The two kerises have quite similar kembang kacang / belalai gajah, and sogokan also bears resemblance...but why would you address is as "bugis-influenced culture" instead of a bugis?

Well, Alan, pardon my typo there...definitely it's not going to go as far as Easter island! This is why I hate to write on a laptop, where the keys are dead flat!

A. G. Maisey · 1st November 2009, 09:21 AM

I loathe laptops.

An invention of Satan.

Moshah · 1st November 2009, 09:34 AM

I can see why, Alan.

However I have made the devil's pact since last year by purchasing one.

Gustav · 1st November 2009, 11:44 AM

Dear Moshah,

I just thought, the Sorsoran-features are rather plain and the overall shape to, I would say, "handsome" for a Bugis. The primary influence for this blade for me is Javanese, the secondary Bugis.

But as I wrote, I didn't have enough knowledge to build an opinion, so it is my fault to have write something about this subject at all.

David · 1st November 2009, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshah

My bad, Detlef. What I meant to say is that David has shown me an identical motives to the pendok of the keris that I am posting..

Yes Moshah, and AFAIK this is a Sulawesi keris (mine), not Sumatran.

Moshah · 1st November 2009, 06:58 PM

Thanks for the input, Gustav. I really think you got a point there. This could be a mixed bag. However the kembang kacang has the same style with the sold bugis keris in Malay Art Gallery. It gets really confused now...

Pardon me mistakes, David. What I really meant is, when I see your pix it is clear that the pendoks are identical.

However I don't think it is safe to tag the blade according to its hilt and sheath. There are always the possibility of previous owner's preferences (in changing the hilts and sheath) and also dealer's intervention.

27th October 2009, 06:26 AM	#1
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Sumatran / Bugis ID Good day guys. This might be a rather foolish thing to ask. But then again, I was neither good at IDing blade's origin, so here it is. Could you guys ID whether this blade's a Sumatran or a Bugis? It was in the posession of a German living in the Indonesia, who bought this 40 years ago there. Perhaps some of you guys have seen this blade... Thanks in advance. Moshah Attached Images

28th October 2009, 02:31 AM	#5
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	David, purposely I didn't attached the sheath because it suggests bona-fide Bugis.. However, sheath can be deceiving, I never relied on them alone.. Kai Wee, which form is familiar to u? Mind sharing it here? BTW, could it be Palembang? Attached Images

28th October 2009, 03:33 AM	#7
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Hi Sajen, The hilt is sea ivory, I've been told. Looks like a Palembang hilt, wasn't it? I don't know very much about Bugis keris, didn't see very much good example as well, but I feel that this piece was no Bugis. Was the sogokan is familiar to bugis keris? BTW, the hilt, close-up: Attached Images

1st November 2009, 11:44 AM	#28
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	Dear Moshah, I just thought, the Sorsoran-features are rather plain and the overall shape to, I would say, "handsome" for a Bugis. The primary influence for this blade for me is Javanese, the secondary Bugis. But as I wrote, I didn't have enough knowledge to build an opinion, so it is my fault to have write something about this subject at all. Last edited by Gustav; 1st November 2009 at 01:43 PM.

27th October 2009, 03:20 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	These two things are not exclusive. It is possible to have a Bugis blade that is also Sumatran. I can certainly see the Bugis influence in this blade. Beautiful hilt as well. What does the sheath look like?

27th October 2009, 05:45 PM	#3
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	hmmm... the blade form looks familiar...

27th October 2009, 06:09 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Can be from both origin.

28th October 2009, 02:53 AM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Bugis Riau? Which material is the handle? sajen

28th October 2009, 04:41 AM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Wow, the hilt is really sweet! Moshah, the Bugis were all over the area. They had settlements everywhere. There were Bugis in Sumatra as well as many other areas. The Bugis were a seafaring peole. They got around. But the sheath looks Sulawesi to me.

29th October 2009, 12:54 AM	#9
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Very nice hilt but don't need to be from Palembang, every other region of Sumatra is possible, my 2 cent opinion.

30th October 2009, 11:39 AM	#10
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Moshah, Congrats, nice keris! The carving work on this nice Jawa Demam is not typical for Palembang and does show some Bugis influence IMHO (carving details like the pattern on the throat). Also, I wouldn't rule out a Sulawesi origin of the blade. Have been wrong before though... Regards, Kai

30th October 2009, 05:48 PM	#11
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Well fellas, it ain't mine yet... However, the hilt's carving is something really new to me. And it looks like modernized motives being used. Pardon my knowledge, but that's what I see. Is the carving only have Bugis' motives on the throat, instead of the whole carving works, Kai? Yeah, David, Bugises were seafaring people, and now I understand why their influence is everywhere...BTW which part of the sheath are Sulawesi? The pendok? or the sampir / wronko?

30th October 2009, 06:38 PM	#12
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	I still vote for Bugis Riau, the keris have Bugis and Sumatra influence. Warangka and pendokok looks Bugis and pendok looks sumatran while the hilt have influence from both and the blade seems to be sumatran. I think that it is a very nice old keris, so far you can see it by pictures. Detlef

30th October 2009, 07:00 PM	#13
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	I believe it is a good keris too, detlef. (or should i called u sajen?) If I was not mistaken, I can see that the blade has been warang / etched / stained. If it was a bugis-riau keris, do it still need the warangan? Didn't by undid the warangan, the pamor can't be seen clearly like this? What pattern of pamor is that? I think I've seen such pamor in some sumatran kerises, but I dunno what name it goes... If it was an old keris, it was so lucky to be in right hands, since very little trace of damages can be found there...

30th October 2009, 09:51 PM	#14
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Moshah, Detlef is fine, sajen is my user name. I don't know if you have seen this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8761 Ok, it's a Sumatra keris (like I believe that's your's blade also) and I think that your blade have a very nice pamor and it don't will look nice like this without warangan. I don't know if Bugis blades have had originally a warangan but BluErf for example have a great knowledge about this and will be able to answer this question. I personally like it by keris from all region when they etched. Like you see in the link above the pamor is better visible. The pamor on your keris seems to be some sort of Wengkon Untu Walang, but I am not very sure and I am not an expert. Like I write before, it's a very nice keris in a good state and I would be happy when it belongs to my collection! Regards, Detlef

30th October 2009, 10:20 PM	#15
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	I think you got a point there, Detlef. Because of the norm, I've seen most bugis keris without its etching and on certain point, it is nice to see it like that. But if the pamor is traceable and outstanding, etching seems to be just fine, as in case of your palembang gonjo iras blade... Meanwhile in this case, perhaps do nothing is best It is a keris in a good state, but do it really have some ages? It doesn't look new, nor did it looks too old as well...

30th October 2009, 10:49 PM	#16
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	I think that it's an old one, but very difficult to say only by pictures. BTW, which material is the pendok?

31st October 2009, 03:22 AM	#17
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	I think it is silver, since there are blacky patch all over it. I could be mamas as well, but I have very limited knowledge on identifying one. I must have some age, but detlef how could you ID that?

31st October 2009, 06:32 AM	#18
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	I just got some opinion regarding of this keris: The hilt and wronko is Bugis. Sheath is Sumatran. Blade is Javanese, of dhapur Menderang, pamor Unthu Walang. Somebody of extensive knowledge of Javanese keris might can approve this theory or not. As my knowledge are limited, I wouldn't say it's a Javanese blade because it doesn't look like one. I might be extremely wrong, however....

31st October 2009, 01:34 PM	#20
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	It is not a Javanese blade. Having said that I will add that from the pic I don't know what it is. There are Eastern Island elements, Bugis elements, and Sumatra elements---even a touch of Bali. At the moment I wouldn't be prepared to back anything. Silver is very easy to ID with test acid. If you do not have your own test acid, a jeweller can ID silver in two seconds flat. The difference in value between silver of any grade and mamas, nickel silver, white brass, silver plate, and any other look-a-likes is immense. A bottle of test acid costs almost zilch. Fifty years ago I decided that self protection was the best policy and bought a little bottle of test acid, I've never been without one since. Personally, I think this keris is a dealers melange---pieces from different places mated for purpose of sale.

31st October 2009, 02:07 PM	#21
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Whoa, David, now that is surely a Sumatran sheath! It is really identical! Alan, when u mentioned easter island, now i remember why this piece reminds me of something else. It surely has numerous different influences, but still now we can't really confirm where the blade should be coming from.

31st October 2009, 04:07 PM	#23
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	In some features similar keris lurus from Malay Art Gallery's sold items: http://www.geocities.com/keris4u/ker...u_seaivory.htm with pejetan (slightly different), sogokan, eroded greneng with ron dha nunut and eroded jenggot on a similar kembang kacang, tikel alis and sraweyan. Probably somebody can correct me. Also for this keris blade a Sulawesi provenience is probably very questionably. It looks more like a bugis influenced culture and not bugis to me. But I must apologise, I simply have not enough knowledge to build an opinion.

31st October 2009, 09:23 PM	#24
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Easter Island??

1st November 2009, 03:56 AM	#25
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	My bad, Detlef. What I meant to say is that David has shown me an identical motives to the pendok of the keris that I am posting.. Hi Gustav. Thank you very much on your opinion. I can see that you have valid ground about that. The two kerises have quite similar kembang kacang / belalai gajah, and sogokan also bears resemblance...but why would you address is as "bugis-influenced culture" instead of a bugis? Well, Alan, pardon my typo there...definitely it's not going to go as far as Easter island! This is why I hate to write on a laptop, where the keys are dead flat!

1st November 2009, 09:21 AM	#26
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	I loathe laptops. An invention of Satan.

1st November 2009, 09:34 AM	#27
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	I can see why, Alan. However I have made the devil's pact since last year by purchasing one.

1st November 2009, 06:58 PM	#30
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Thanks for the input, Gustav. I really think you got a point there. This could be a mixed bag. However the kembang kacang has the same style with the sold bugis keris in Malay Art Gallery. It gets really confused now... Pardon me mistakes, David. What I really meant is, when I see your pix it is clear that the pendoks are identical. However I don't think it is safe to tag the blade according to its hilt and sheath. There are always the possibility of previous owner's preferences (in changing the hilts and sheath) and also dealer's intervention.