Interesting wootz tulwar for comments

[Atlantia]

Hi All!
Well, here's one that I'm very happy to have found.
A long slender shamshir style blade with a fine reasonable contrast wootz pattern. It looks to my inexpert eye to be fairly a random 'watered' pattern, Indian Wootz.... But what do I know!
Any comments on the type of wootz, style/area of origin of the sword, age etc greatfully received.

[Gavin Nugent]

Nice sword Gene, congrats.

One question that I hope someone maybe able to answer with exactness rather than assumptions, the very small block ricasso seen on this example. I have seen it on a jade hilted shamshir and two other Persian or Central Asian Shamshir.
Does this small block denote anthing in particular beit a regional thing or otherwise? I'd certainly like to know.

Gav

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Nice sword Gene, congrats.

One question that I hope someone maybe able to answer with exactness rather than assumptions, the very small block ricasso seen on this example. I have seen it on a jade hilted shamshir and two other Persian or Central Asian Shamshir.
Does this small block denote anthing in particular beit a regional thing or otherwise? I'd certainly like to know.

Gav

Thanks Gav,
TBH this blade has a couple of atypical features. The block as you mention, and the strangely simple decoration with the curling fuller doing a U-turn at the hilt end of the blade. The corresponding one of the other side is simply straight.
A good long blade though, whats your thoughts on the type of wootz?
Best
Gene

[RSWORD]

Very nice blade! The wootz has good activity, color and contrast and in my opinion is of Persian manufacture. The block ricasso you see at the forte are "cheeks" used to reinforce the tang root and the blade. If you look through the Figiel catalogue, you will notice a lot of blades done in this fashion but typically it seems to happen a lot with nice wootz blades that were probably imported and the tang had to be adjusted to fit the tulwar hilting so these cheeks were added to give stability. The U-turn feature is found primarily on Persian and Indian blades and also some Chinese blades. It is not uncommon for this feature to be on one side only. That is actual the more typical configuration. You have a quality Persian blade with very nice wootz probably late 18th to early 19th century with tulwar hilt. A nice find!

[Lew]

Well here is my theory the lack of that grind at the ricasso to me means it is a Persian blade. The only thing that bothers me is the hilt which seems to be a later addition. The blade is super nice quality but the hilt seems too plain for such a nice blade? Also it looks a bit long most hilts from that time were quite small. Still a piece of eye candy to me.

Congrats

Lew

[RSWORD]

I wouldn't discount the hilt just yet. Take the hilt out into good sunlight and have a close look. Perhaps the hilt is wootz as well?

[Atlantia]

RSWORD,

Thanks a lot Thats great news and thanks for explaining the features of the blade.

LEW/RSWORD,

I saw this sword a week ago, great condition but completely cleaned, very carefully with what looks to have been 00 wire wool. Must have taken someone a while, no real scratches, but no patina remaining at all except for the underside of the quillions, which are not pitted but dark brown from surface oxidisation.
I checked and the hilt has not been recently added (the resin looks right and old, there are of course no traces of decoration apart from the pierced area. Also no crosshatching or engraving indicating that it was once more elaborate, but the hilt feels wonderful to hold.

I had a strong feeling that the blade would be wootz, and at the first touch of an etch the wootz sprung immediately to life.
Not on the hilt though sadly.

Best and thanks for your help
Gene

P>S. so now this blade is ID'd as Persian, what would this wootz pattern be called?

[Lew]

Gene

What I mean about the hilt is that it might be late 19th century but still not original to the blade which may have had a more fancy hilt?

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Lew

Gene

What I mean about the hilt is that it might be late 19th century but still not original to the blade which may have had a more fancy hilt?

Good point mate, could be

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Gene,
Who's the lucky one now? My turn for the 'little green eyed god'. Really
nice, would sit well with my other Tulwars. Can't wait to see what comes out of the hat next.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Gene,
Who's the lucky one now? My turn for the 'little green eyed god'. Really
nice, would sit well with my other Tulwars. Can't wait to see what comes out of the hat next.
My Regards,
Norman.

To be perfectly honest mate I'm completely dumbfounded that in the space of a week I've bought two: "I've always wanted one of those" swords!
I seriously doubt that I can keep this sort of performance going!

Thanks Mate
Gene

[Atlantia]

Further to this being a trade blade and the question of matching it to suitable hilts, I found myself thinking that the fullers end long before the hilt and the blade is rather long.
Would this also suggest that this blade was made with a variety of modifications to fit various hilt styles being catered for?

See pictures below. Fairly standard Shamshir below and good sized Tulwar above.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

P>S. so now this blade is ID'd as Persian, what would this wootz pattern be called?

Hi
according with the book;
"Weapons of the Islamic World" subtitle: "Swords & Armour"?
It is published by the King Faisal Center for Research and Islamic Studies, Riyadh, KSA
- refers to damascus/wootz as "al-johar"
it's under that appelation that in Middle-East the "Persian wootz" its called

à +

Dom

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Dom

Hi
according with the book;
"Weapons of the Islamic World" subtitle: "Swords & Armour"?
It is published by the King Faisal Center for Research and Islamic Studies, Riyadh, KSA
- refers to damascus/wootz as "al-johar"
it's under that appelation that in Middle-East the "Persian wootz" its called

à +

Dom

Hi Dom,
Thanks for your help.
So Johar is a generic term for all 'wootz'?
Does this pattern have a specific name or meaning? Does it represent water, or is it just random?

'shukran'
Gene

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

So Johar is a generic term for all 'wootz'?
Does this pattern have a specific name or meaning? Does it represent water, or is it just random?

'shukran'
Gene

"afwan" Gene

Djohar should (?) means "a high quality" in Farsi
but my translator, told me it's come from the arabic word "ga'howara"
meaning; "precious" like precious stone, diamond ... we reach the Farsi meaning

à +

Dom

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Dom

"afwan" Gene

Djohar should (?) means "a high quality" in Farsi
but my translator, told me it's come from the arabic word "ga'howara"
meaning; "precious" like precious stone, diamond ... we reach the Farsi meaning

à +

Dom

Thank you my friend. As always, you have increased my understanding.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by RSWORD

Very nice blade! The wootz has good activity, color and contrast and in my opinion is of Persian manufacture. The block ricasso you see at the forte are "cheeks" used to reinforce the tang root and the blade. If you look through the Figiel catalogue, you will notice a lot of blades done in this fashion but typically it seems to happen a lot with nice wootz blades that were probably imported and the tang had to be adjusted to fit the tulwar hilting so these cheeks were added to give stability. The U-turn feature is found primarily on Persian and Indian blades and also some Chinese blades. It is not uncommon for this feature to be on one side only. That is actual the more typical configuration. You have a quality Persian blade with very nice wootz probably late 18th to early 19th century with tulwar hilt. A nice find!

Rick,

Sorry to throw this question back to you directly, but you have far more experience of diverse wootz than anyone I can think of.
I can now see that this blade is typical of persian wootz, but I'm still curious as to if the pattern is simply due to the methods of manufacture or if it is deliberate?
If it had hitches it would be 'ladder' pattern, but is this basic but rather beautiful pattern genuinely meant to represent flowing water? A novice like me often hears wootz refered to as 'watering' and this, with its flow and irregular swirls feels like the surface ripples of a flowing river.
Sorry, I'm rambling. Simply put, does standard persian wootz have a deliberate pattern, with a symbolic meaning, or is it random?

Many Thanks
Gene

[RSWORD]

Hi Gene,

The forging of the blade is a deliberate process to get this kind of result but the pattern produced is somewhat random. In this case, I don't think the pattern produced is meant to symbolize anything but rather what is produced illicits comparisons to flowing water, or sometimes woodgrain so these are more in the describing of what is being seen in the blade. Kind of like which came first, the chicken or the egg. I think the pattern came first, and from that the descriptions of what was being seen. The only pattern that is "created" and not strictly the result of the forging process is the ladder pattern. This is a mechanically created pattern. The wootz ingot is manipulated during the forging process in a way that produces the pattern. It is an artificial ladder over the random pattern the wootz process creates. The variety of patterns that one can find is interesting and many classifications of these patterns have been proposed over the years. There are certain patterns, that due to their level of activity, color and clarity that can be associated with a certain region. Your blade, for example, has the color and consistency in pattern as well as overall activity(swirls, meandering lines, waves, etc.) that is most often associated with Persian manufacture. There are certain patterns which can be associated with India and certain patterns that can be associated with Turkey/Syria. If interested in the study of wootz and the various patterns and classifications, there are some good books I would be happy to recommend.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by RSWORD

Hi Gene,

The forging of the blade is a deliberate process to get this kind of result but the pattern produced is somewhat random. In this case, I don't think the pattern produced is meant to symbolize anything but rather what is produced illicits comparisons to flowing water, or sometimes woodgrain so these are more in the describing of what is being seen in the blade. Kind of like which came first, the chicken or the egg. I think the pattern came first, and from that the descriptions of what was being seen. The only pattern that is "created" and not strictly the result of the forging process is the ladder pattern. This is a mechanically created pattern. The wootz ingot is manipulated during the forging process in a way that produces the pattern. It is an artificial ladder over the random pattern the wootz process creates. The variety of patterns that one can find is interesting and many classifications of these patterns have been proposed over the years. There are certain patterns, that due to their level of activity, color and clarity that can be associated with a certain region. Your blade, for example, has the color and consistency in pattern as well as overall activity(swirls, meandering lines, waves, etc.) that is most often associated with Persian manufacture. There are certain patterns which can be associated with India and certain patterns that can be associated with Turkey/Syria. If interested in the study of wootz and the various patterns and classifications, there are some good books I would be happy to recommend.

Thanks mate, you're a star! The information you've provided has been extremely helpful and informative.
Are any of those books easy to find and relatively cheap?
As usual for me, owning a thing begins the study.
I have an indian wootz Katar but the quality is nothing compared with this sword. I didn't think I'd ever find such a nice example within my budget.
Best
Gene

[RSWORD]

The one that I recommend that is probably the most reasonable to find and the most economical, but unfortunately not cheap, is Manfred Sachse "Damascus Steel", ISBN 3-514-00522-2. Double check to make sure it is the English version. What is great about the book is he covers all the varieties of damascus steel from pattern welds to wootz and he has lots of pictures to illustrate the type and he offers his own categorization of wootz. Should be easy to find and with a bit of shopping around you can probably find a copy for under $100. I think this would be a great starting point.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by RSWORD

The one that I recommend that is probably the most reasonable to find and the most economical, but unfortunately not cheap, is Manfred Sachse "Damascus Steel", ISBN 3-514-00522-2. Double check to make sure it is the English version. What is great about the book is he covers all the varieties of damascus steel from pattern welds to wootz and he has lots of pictures to illustrate the type and he offers his own categorization of wootz. Should be easy to find and with a bit of shopping around you can probably find a copy for under $100. I think this would be a great starting point.

Thanks Mate, I'll keep an eye out for a bargain copy
I can certainly see why wootz is addictive!!!

[Atlantia]

I've been asked for some measurements of this sword.

[Gonzalo G]

Thank you very much for those measures, Gene. I believe they will give a more deep understanding on the characteristics of this beautiful swords. Looking the picture I wouldn´t believe that the width of the blade was only 3 cm and the weight of the sword only 800 gr. Measures give a much more precise perspective. My congratulations for your acquisition. You have a veri nice collection there.
My best regards

Gonzalo

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Thank you very much for those measures, Gene. I believe they will give a more deep understanding on the characteristics of this beautiful swords. Looking the picture I wouldn´t believe that the width of the blade was only 3 cm and the weight of the sword only 800 gr. Measures give a much more precise perspective. My congratulations for your acquisition. You have a veri nice collection there.
My best regards

Gonzalo

Welcome back my friend.

The sword feels incredibly light when held. Even in my rather wide hand the hilt feels smooth and comfortable, it swings beautifully, and the balance is perfect. A complete revelation compared to most Tulwars I have owned.

Best
Gene