Hunting Sword no1

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Continental European, rather than English I would suspect, mid 18thC hunting sword. O.A. length 28 inches blade 22 3/4 inches, 1 1/4 at widest and shy of 1/4 inch at its thickest, the hilt is of horn. There is no blade decoration but there is a makers? mark on both sides of the blade, see photos. I have come across one other sword on the net similar looking, but with pictorial relief on the guard, with the same makers? mark. Would obviously like to hear from anybody who has any idea on the maker and of course all comments welcome.
Regards,
Norman.

[fernando]

Hi Norman,
From the altar of my ignorance ...
If it is not German, surely has such influence, with that typical shell guard appendix.
I can not avoid thinking that many hunting swords are mounted with (shortened) sword blades.
Have you examined how the fuller end meets with the point, to exclude such probability ?
Nice piece, by the way .

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Fernando,
German would seem to me to be a good call. The fuller ends properly on both sides 5 1/2 inches from the blade tip thereby to my mind excluding the possibility of a cut down blade. Here is another with the same makers mark and blade profile making the probability of both coming from the same workshop more than a possibility.
My Regards,
Norman.

[fernando]

I see !
Pity i can't ID the mark; maybe some member will.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi
Here's a better image of the 'makers' mark on my sword.
Regards,
Norman.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
A friend found this similar mark on a basket hilted backsword.
Regards,
Norman.



Photos, Culloden House Antiques.

[fernando]

A fleur de liz ... right ?

.

[Norman McCormick]

Originally Posted by fernando

A fleur de liz ... right ?

Looks pretty much like it, now all we need is some well informed Forumite to come with an I.D.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Found another possible example of this mark.
Regards,
Norman.


Photos, AAAWT

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Have found an assertion on the net that the mark is that of the London Cutlers Company but I cannot find any corroborating evidence for this, anybody got more info on this possibility?
Regards,
Norman.

[Jim McDougall]

Norman, you are really following through with impressive detective work on this, as always, and thank you for keeping us up to speed with findings. I think the assertion regarding the London Cutlers Co. is likely well founded as it seems the general research corresponding in other items presented by this firm appears reliable. I would suspect that checking in 'Southwick' would reveal more detail.

These court swords as well as the British dragoon sword (c.1760s) with same configuration blade and stamped marks of the fleur de lis do seem to have blades of common source. I am inclined to think these are Solingen blades imported and stamped in this period but it is puzzling to think that the London Cutlers would have used German blades. The fleur de lis, while also surprising to me to be a British mark, after looking further seem quite well placed after all.

According to Howard Blackmore ("Hunting Weapons") notes the prevalent use of fleur de lis in the motif on swords along with Tudor roses, cherubs and royal heads in the end of 17th into 18th. Clearly the fleur de lis was present in the upper right quadrant of the Royal Arms until 1801, and the numbers of French artisans in English commercial areas was significant.

The Cutlers Company dates back to the 15th century, and there seem of course various chronological changes in organization and markings etc. but again I am puzzled by the use of what appears a German blade stamped with a mark said to be of this company.
In a Bosley's catalog of June 4, 2008 (#924) there is a brass mounted court/hunting sword described as "Continental, 18th century". There is no image but the blade is 21.5 " long and said to have fleur de lis stamp on either side of the blade.
Since England did not export blades to the Continent, then why would a mark of the London Cutlers Co. be on a sword there?

One of the primary reasons that Solingen swordsmiths ended up in England in the early to mid 17th century was to provide England itself with the benefit of these quality blades with importing them from Germany. The German swordsmiths came into Hounslow, then after that operation ceased came the Shotley Bridge enterprise which too became defunct in the early years of the 18th century. The opposition to the import of German blades remained prevalent, though as the numbers of English makers grew, there were still agents bringing in German blades into the 19th century .

Did the London Cutlers Co. actually produce blades is my question. If so, perhaps they were copying German pattern blades, where these would be readily explained.

Anybody out there have Southwick?????

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Jim,
Many thanks as usual for your keen interest and interesting comments. This fleur de lys mark appears to be evident on quite a few differing styles of weapons and on that note do you, or anyone else, have a copy of the American Sword 1775-1945 by Petersen. On page 48 item no 45 is a cutlass which according to the text has a fleur de lys blade mark. I would be grateful if anyone has a copy of this book could they please have a look at this cutlass and if this mark is visible in the hard copy could they post an image of it here, the copy I looked at on the net was very unclear with regard to detail. Once again Jim thanks for your interest, perhaps you could have a look at No2 and give me your impressions.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. This one has a few edge nicks which obviously begs the question, 'was this used only for hunting or ?'. A question which is guaranteed to remain unresolved.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Norman,
In looking at Petersen as indicated, item #45 does appear to have this same type blade, but the image is so dark that I cannot make out the mark It does seem to be located in somewhat the same location on the blade and the single back fuller seems present .
In the text it is noted this cutlass was produced by Richard Gridley who produced these and other military stores c.1776-1777 in his 'furnace' in Sharon, Massachusetts.

As these colonies at that time had been receiving British goods for some time obviously, it seems likely he might have had some of these blades at hand and produced swords using them.

It is often confusing with the term 'hunting' swords with these 18th c. swords and as seen with many references, the hunt was a very gentry oriented affair. Much in these events was of course fashion oriented and it is often difficult to differentiate in court or hunting swords as both were in effect concurrently interchanged in many cases.

As an aside on this piece, in my opinion the dark and vertically fluted grip seems a particularly French affectation, but naturally it is simply a subjective observation based on many French swords using this design.

[Jim McDougall]

I have been going through Aylward ("The Smallsword in England", 1945) in order to find any references to the London Cutlers Co. While most references attend to the rather ancient history of this organization which began in 1365 (p.32) noting that every cutler must record his mark, it seems that in the period discussed there was far less structure. On the same page Aylward notes that by 1680 there were very few cutlers belonging to the company and the Company lacked the power to check importing of blades.
On p.34, it is noted that a manuscript book of cutlers marks of 17th century was made, but incomplete, and the last attempt to control sword blade trade was in 1719, thus through the 18th century no accurate data was apparently kept. Still the Company existed as a nominal entity, and there is discussion of a mark of a flaming sword used as late as 1780 by varying cutlers (p.18-19).

Most telling is on p.19 where Aylward notes, "...in the 18th century the bladesmiths art was at a low ebb, and the demand for fine blades was met by bulk importations from Solingen". Further, "...these bulk importations of blades too, might be one of the reasons for the absence of signatures on blades mounted by 18th century sword cutlers" . Apparantly the craft of sword cutler' was a multiple faceted trade as they also acted as hatters, and general outfitters.
In these capacities these men acted essentially as 'hilters' using imported blades, and in the latter 17th into 18th century they situated around particular business districts where at certain coffee houses etc. they woud bid on parcels of imported blades. On p.35 it is noted that by 1767 there were only three bladesmiths in Birmingham, then the seat of the English blade trade, and there had been certain prejudices against English made blades well through the 18th century, with German producers holding an unchallenged monopoly .

Howard Blackmore ("Hunting Weapons", 1971,p.42) stating that by 1760-90 the universal practice for the sword cutler ( calling him the 'hilter' in actuality) to order the 'white' blade from recognized centers (Solingen) and basically assemble the swords.

It would seem that there is no record of a fleur de lis being specific to the London Cutlers Co. as makers of sword blades. As noted, it appears that blades were indeed imported from Germany, and these blades with this mark of the fleur de lis appear not only in England, but on the Continent, with the examples in America having come from British sources. As Solingen often added particular names, slogans and markings on their blades for consignments to certain markets, perhaps these were among such and over a period c.1720s into 1750s.
I checked through Bezdek and found no indication of the fleur de lis for any maker listed. As noted no particular makers marks using fleur de lis are mentioned in the text of Aylward for the Cutlers Co nor any particular maker in England, and he is usually keen on such detail.

I would suggest that perhaps this fleur de lis is a kind of 'brand' for these blades destined for English clients in the manner of the 'Andrea Ferara' blades to Scotland and 'Sahagun' blades to North Europe. The fleur de lis was a popular device in England among several others, though it may seem curious. Actually there was a Fleur de Lis street in these business districts in England where cutlers conducted business, so it is tempting to consider association along that venue. These areas were also well populated with French artisans and businessmen, so that furthers possibilities for a key import circumstance.

This may be the explanation for this device found commonly on these blades from this period .

[Dmitry]

Yes, the blade is English-made, mid-1700s, so is the sword. Why wouldn't it be?
Fleur-de-lis stamp of this style was used on British martial blades in that time frame, infantry hangers and sergeants swords, and on some cuttoe-type hangers, which imho were used by the English infantry. During that period arms were purchased by the colonels and distributed to their troops, hence the multitude of types. I don't see why the hunting style hangers couldn't have been used by grenadier detachments and skirmishers, while the regular troops were issued bayonets.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Jim,
Once again many thanks for your research efforts re this sword, it certainly makes for very interesting reading.

Hi Dmitry,
Thanks, I know you have had numerous swords of this type through your hands and I appreciate your input. I was hoping someone was going to touch upon the possible military field use of these swords and as mine has nicks in the blade somewhat consistent with blade to blade contact there was always that possibility but as I have no proof or provenance it will remain conjecture only.

My Regards to you Both,
Norman.

P.S. This site is interesting re the military use of these types of swords. www.jaegerkorps.org/blankwaffen.html Although a re-enactor site these people appear to be very well versed in the history and equipment of the Jaeger Regiments employed by the British in North America.

[Norman McCormick]

Double post.

[fernando]

Another British sword maker also used the fleur de lys punction in 1730:

http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O6...reason-joseph/

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much Norman for your kind words, indeed the time spent going through all these references made for fascinating reading and I wanted to share as much as I could here for context mostly.
What Dmitry notes is most interesting and I would be even more intrigued to know what references support this fleur de lys makers mark (Fernando thank you for that V&A entry which shows Joseph Reason c.1730).

While there were many of these blades of course on English hangers and hunting swords I am curious on the examples found on French and it seems at least one or more Continental swords (need to check further)/ The examples found in the American colonies would be self explanatory, but other than obvious provenance error or broad assumption, it seems odd to see British made blades in Continental swords .

[Jim McDougall]

I decided to continue my research with what resources I have at hand here as this topic is pretty fascinating. My greatest regret as we left on this trip is that I don't have at hand Southwick; Annis & May and some of the other pertinent books, so I will continue as best as possible.

The assertion that these blades must be English seems based on some entries, such as the V&A example showing the FDL (=fluer de lys) as used by Joseph Reason c.1730 and the number of British swords bearing blades with this mark through the 18th century 1720s into 70s. The specific note that this mark was used by the London Cutlers Co. I also questioned.

Did the London Cutlers Co. make blades? or were most, if not even nearly all, imported from Germany? Did any particular English smith or cutler use this FDL as his mark? Was the mark indeed for London Cutlers Co.?

In Stuart Mowbrays new (and fantastic!) new book ("British Military Swords 1600-1660) there is good discussion on the Cutlers Company, and while of course the periods covered predate the swords we are focused on here, the context of this organization and English swords and blades is well placed .

On p.27, he notes, citing a reference in the early 1700s, "...the sword cutler frequently deals in knives and cutlery but consider him here as concerned in mounting swords, making scabbards etc. The blades come mostly from abroad, and none of them are made by the sword cutler". In another reference (p34) it is noted (cited from "History of the Cutlers Co., C.Welch) that "...it wasn't practical for London cutlers to make their own blades"

It seems that "...imported blades were not seen as a bad thing. Most British military men seem to have been of the opinion that Dutch/German blades were superior to British blades" (p.31, Mowbray) . I believe this was cited from "The Mark of the Sword: A Narrative History of the Cutlers Co. 1189-1975" Tom Girtin.
In "Boarders Away" (Gilkerson, 1991, p.89) it is noted that "...many of the blades sold by England to America were deemed too inferior for local consumption and so were foisted off on the colonists. German blades crossed the ocean as well, usually via England".

It would seem that these comments would support the idea that at least some blades were indeed made by makers in England, but seemed that they were far from being comparable to German blades. The German blades which went to America would be my guess to have belonged to British forces rather than for sale to colonists, as noted for English blades.

We know that German swordsmiths had come to England in the early 17th century to Hounslow, and that they had been joined by English smiths as well as the enterprise grew. By 1673, the King had declared that ' sword blades ought to be made in England' (Aylward, 1945, p.31). The end of the Hounslow enterprise seems to have dissipated just after the Civil War but another similar enterprise based on German swordsmiths ( some believed from Hounslow) was formed at Shotley Bridge. The numbers of actual German smiths and English became rather clouded as many Germans had Anglicized their names, but it seems that even after the demise of this enterprise as well (c.1703) there were indeed English smiths making blades.

On p.35 (Aylward, 1945, op.cit) in a comment attributed to Charles Ffoulkes (1932), ..the effort to acclimatize the swordsmiths art in England was unsuccessful, and it is not even likely that the prime object of the promoters goal was attained viz. the training of English apprentices in German methods".
On p.33 Aylward had also noted, regarding at least with the later Shotley Bridge venture, it appeared that they were importing forgings from Solingen which were ground, tempered and finished at Shotley. While the mill had closed in 1703, it was apparently reopened by Hermann Mohll and later sold to Robrt Oley in 1724.

By the 1767, according to Aylward (p.35) ".there were only three bladesmiths in Birmingham , then the seat of the English sword blade trade" In 1783, the Government sought to import sword blades without payment of duties due to the 'disrepute' of English blades. This would suggest there must have been far more than listed in the Birmingham records, and it is stated that by 1814 it was well populated with smiths, so those numbers must have rapidly increased.
This effort toward removal of duties as well as large orders of blades by EIC (competing German vs. English smiths) led to the 'sword scandals' spearheaded by Thomas Gill,Birmingham.

In Gyngell ("Armourers Marks, 1959) there are many gunsmiths marks shown which are comprised with a sort of half FDL or vestigial bottom half and consistently over the smiths initials. These devices are not at all similar to the European versions as seen on these blades. A gunsmith named Ralph Barras (1721), uses a rather gangly looking FDL with only a single stem below the trefoil.
There are no swordsmiths or cutlers shown with the FDL.

I would suggest that these blades were likely to have been imported from Germany as previously suggested, and probably 'outfitted' by cutlers in England by mounting in locally made hilts. As the Cutlers Co. was far more limited in its scope and powers in my view at least, it is doubtful this FDL had anything to do with that organization as a universal mark. The mark used by them in the 17th century was a dagger (more of a sword) which was to accompany the registered cutlers mark.

With Solingen innovation, I believe that the FDL (fleur de lis) as an accommodation toward marks using this device well established by then in England. With then strong ties between English and French gentry and possibly even more esoteric connections it seems possible that the mark had even deeper connotations.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

An amazing thread !! More !!

I know less than nothing about these European weapons ... however, I did find this at http://www.cullodenantiques.com/page...d-weapons.html to whit there appears an equal Fleur de Lys below from that weapon not an English Dragoons Basket Hilted Backsword but a Scottish Troop Horse Grenadiers Sword Sorry Norman !!

OOPS...!! This I note has already generally been pointed to earlier at #6.. but I make the correction.

I note also at #9 some arabic to the blade which is a variation on the "God is Great" theme but stacked half sideways...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Ibrahiim,
Thank you for the additional pics of the interesting Culloden House item which Norman posted in #6 and noted as a basket hilted sword. As it was not specifically identified it is interesting to know that it was a horse grenadier sword. I have always considered Robert Docherty's descriptions and detail most reliable, and this is a great example.



The Scottish regiments in the British army were receiving swords made in Birmingham and London for a good number of years before Culloden (1746). One of the first recordings of an actual supplier was 1759, when Nathaniel Jeffries was noted having delivered 3500 broadswords that year ( "Swords for the Highland Regiments 1757-1784" Anthony Darling, 1988 , p.13).
He and Dru Drury were both actually goldsmiths, who according to Darling (p.53) probably subcontracted for finished guards, pommels and blades from Birmingham and assembled them at their workshops in London, contributing their own grips and coverings.

They both stamped the blades with crown over their names in roughly similar location to these fleur de lis stamps and with similar 'artwork'.

In his interesting monograph , "Scottish Swords from the Battlefield at Culloden" (Mowbray, 1971) Lord Archibald Campbell is describing a number of blades from the tragic battle of 1746, which were rather heinously fabricated into a fence. He claims that virtually all the blades, save about two stated from the British, were all Scottish. This is most curious as he describes the blades and types noting, "...another type was a single cutting edge with a broad back. These are in many instances stamped with a FLEUR DE LIS others with a running dog or hare; another is marked HARVEY which cannot be made out of the British Isles, probably".

While we can imagine the running dog? is probably the Solingen wolf, and Harvey is noted by Darling (p53) as the probable source for the 'H' mark found on tangs of disassembled blades from these Scottish regimental swords......the mention of the fleur de lys is compelling.

Also interesting of course is the note regarding these single edged blades and calling it a 'broadsword'. In earlier times the term broadsword was in effect generally used often referring to what we now term 'backswords' as well as the more properly termed double edged blades . Why this is important is that it is generally held that true Scottish broadswords (i.e basket hilts) are invariably double edged . The backsword was favored in the 18th century for British dragoon regiments.

Looking further into European use of the fleur de lys on blades, in the Wallace Collection catalog (Sir James Mann, 1962) item A474 is a German two hand sword of 16th century with deep stamped fleur de lys on each blade face.

In "The Plug Bayonet" (R.D.C.Evans, p.76, #6) is the fleur de lys marking stated as being probably a French state ownership stamp, not the stamp of an individual cutler. It was used for example by some arms producers at Tulle and St Etienne who supplied arms to the Magasin Royal des Armes de Paris from 1666 onward . It is also found on Swiss military bayonets c.1680 so not always French.
The stamped fleur de lys depicted is deeply stamped and bold, not the 'artwork' type seen on our examples.

While all these references do not give us a final answer as to the probable origin of the fleur de lys marks found in common on these blades, the form does suggest they may have been placed on them after being received in England in the parcels of blades auctioned to cutlers. As often the case with trade blades they were likely produced as 'blanks' in Solingen and stamped as signifier of 'lots' or perhaps a quality mark alluding perhaps to the earlier marks in Germany or possibly French associations previously noted .

That is of course one scenario, but the question remains, why does this same mark occur on some blades of swords with apparent Continental provenance? There is the rub, are those simply misidentified or have been transported back across the channel in later dealings?

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Another sword French C1740, the sword belongs to a member over on S.F.I. and I do hope he doesn't mind me using his photos.
Regards,
Norman.

P.S. Sorry Jim another spanner in the works etc etc.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Ibrahiim,
I didn't post a link to the specific commercial site as I believe it is against Forum Policy but many thanks for your interest in this discussion. I'm at a bit of a loss though to make out the Arabic script you mention in your post.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Ibrahiim,
I didn't post a link to the specific commercial site as I believe it is against Forum Policy but many thanks for your interest in this discussion. I'm at a bit of a loss though to make out the Arabic script you mention in your post.
My Regards,
Norman.

Salaams Norman, I have no problem inserting web sites provided it is logged as such and for research...clearly not associated to some purchase..thus allowed. On the Arabic I am wrong... Its funny but I switched it on just now and it is clearly a fleur de lys stamp whereas yesterday I swear I was seeing a peculiar "God is Great" stamp... I put it down to the heat (about 50 degrees yesterday !) Apologies for that.

Anyway on the website there are a couple of swords and the fleur de lys appears to be from the Scottish ... would this be because of the Franco/ Scottish allegiance at the time?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Ibrahiim,
No apology necessary, as my name suggests I'm a 'Man of the North' and any more than 25 Deg C and I'm 'oot the game' 50 Deg C and my mind wouldn't be capable of any rational thought never mind i.d'ing a stamp in a blurry photo. I really don't think the fleur de lys stamp has anything specifically to do with the Auld Alliance and any possible association is coincidental. Thanks once again for your interest.
My Regards,
Norman.


P.S. Congratulations on your 2000th post

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Ibrahiim,
No apology necessary, as my name suggests I'm a 'Man of the North' and any more than 25 Deg C and I'm 'oot the game' 50 Deg C and my mind wouldn't be capable of any rational thought never mind i.d'ing a stamp in a blurry photo. I really don't think the fleur de lys stamp has anything specifically to do with the Auld Alliance and any possible association is coincidental. Thanks once again for your interest.
My Regards,
Norman.


P.S. Congratulations on your 2000th post

Thanks Norman.. 2000 !! Thats a whole lot of ink !!

Aye! I heard that Scots go blue afore they go brown !!!
This is a fascinating thread and the factors behind the "Trio in Juncta" or "Fleur de Lys" are very interesting and Forum are lucky to have the entire Bookmobile of Jim McDougall in direct support on route 66...

Great thread Norman... Thanks.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Norman and Ibrahiim, thank you for the kind words !!
I am warned by my wife that any more books in this thing will require much heavier springs!!
My hope is that others will be joining in here quid pro quo....I add whatever I can find in order to share as much as I can and there are so many other references out there I don't have here. That's why I implore others who have them to check them and add their notes.

On the Scot/French situation. While that was of course a well established alliance and the French language was well spoken in Scotland, the deal with these fleur de lis markings on these basket hilt swords I think not really applicable. These were English blades on British dragoon swords which were typically from Birmingham, and there mostly from Germany (though these FDL blades are still undetermined) .
I am beginning to wonder if these fleur de lis blades might have been from St. Etienne? There seem to be a good number found in French mounts, more than I had thought.

[M ELEY]

I'm wondering just how far back the fleur-de-lis really goes on English blades?! I've personally seen at least two of the so-called 'doghead' Englsh naval swords (brass cast monster/dog gripped) from the 1680-1710 period with the above stamp! Early Brit naval hanger baldes from this period often had German blades (the King/crown Wundes family marking comes to mind), so still wondeering if these baldes are German-made imports?

[Hotspur]

Prepare for some reading

Displaying Results 1 - 20 of 238
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London Port Book, 1567-8 - Nos. 200-299 (Dec 1567 - Jan 1568)

The port and trade of early Elizabethan London: documents

tenon-saws, 6 doz. hand-saws, 6 cwt frying pans, 20 doz. coarse sword blades. 9½ grs small hanging locks, 48 lbs curtain rings, 20 lbs clavichord wire, 10 thou. awl blades £39 12 s (3 Dec 1567). James Harvie: 4 doz. whip-saws £6. John Gardyner: 12 cwt red lead, 4 cwt white lead, 3 qrs white copperas, 2 hd (

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=35954
London Port Book, 1567-8 - Nos. 500-599 (May - June, 1568)

The port and trade of early Elizabethan London: documents

chains, 60 lbs counters, 16 cwt frying pans, 48 doz. coarse sword blades £63 3 s 4 d (29 May 1568). Henry Becher: 109 doz. thou. pins, 203 yds taffeta, 200 half-pcs Genoa fustian £152 10 s . John Lambert: 13 cwt battery £26. Gerson Hills: 38 cwt hemp £38. Richard Hills: 41 cwt hemp £41. John Pasfilde: 1

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=35957
London Port Book, 1567-8 - Nos. 1-99 (Sept - Nov, 1567)

The port and trade of early Elizabethan London: documents

wool £11 13 s 4 d (3 Oct 1567). John Spencer: 220 lbs pepper £18 6 s 8 d . George Breame: 10 cwt battery £20. Edward Jackman: 650 lbs pepper £54 3 s 4 d . Edmund Burton: 3 half-brls head nails, 5 cwt frying pans, 24 doz. coarse sword blades, 7 cwt white plates, 12 hd 'stass' steel, 3 cwt pack thread,

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=35952
London Port Book, 1567-8 - Nos. 600-699 (June - Aug, 1568)

The port and trade of early Elizabethan London: documents

crewel, 4 doz. lbs bottom pack thread £9 10 s . Thomas Parker: 78 pcs dornick with wool £26. Thomas Brasye: 4 bales Ulm fustian £60. Matthew Fyld: 22 pcs grogram camlet, 66 half-pcs Genoa fustian £52 6 s 8 d . John Passfyld: 7 cwt iron wire, 7 cwt iron creepers, 7 doz. coarse sword blades, 1½ cwt black

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=35958
London Port Book, 1567-8 - Nos. 700-799 (Aug - Sept, 1568)

The port and trade of early Elizabethan London: documents

William Hewet: 13 brls rape oil, 2 bales Ulm fustian £46 6 s 8 d . Robert Exton: 4½ cwt madder, 3 nests empty chests, 5 doz. sword blades £8 6 s 8 d . William Ludington: 12 brls rape oil, 3 cwt litmus, 30 lbs sugar candy, 3 cwt almonds, 10 lbs green ginger, 25 lbs verdigris £26 1 s 8 d . Henry Bechar: 41

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=35959
London Port Book, 1567-8 - Nos. 300-399 (Jan - Mar, 1568)

The port and trade of early Elizabethan London: documents

cloves, 64 lbs nutmegs, 20 lbs mace £50 5 s . Edmund Burton: 2 cwt iron wire, 21 doz. chisels, 9 grs hanging locks, 5½ cwt loose black latten, 5 cwt dripping pans, 31 doz. sword blades £51 10 s . Gerson Hills: 7 cwt hemp £7. Richard Byllam: 21 cwt madder £14. Thomas Starkey: 1500 ells minsters £16 13 s 4

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=35955
Appendix II - Descriptive list of commodities

The port and trade of early Elizabethan London: documents

used in tanning and dyeing. Sword blades, 18 Tablemen, 593. Pieces used in board games. Tables, 593; walnut, 792. See also Playing tables, Writing tables Tacks, 465 Taffeta, 18; 'caffaes', 465; Florence, 462; Levant, 45; Lucca ('Lukes'), 465; Spanish, 357; Tours, 156. 'Caffaes', perhaps from caffa, a

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=35962
Cutler Street Warehouses - Cyvyndonelane

A Dictionary of London

Cutler Street Warehouses See Port of London Authority's Warehouses. Cutlers' Company Elections to the Mistery made in 1328 (Cal. L. Bk. E. p. 233). Company incorporated 4 H. VI., uniting three smaller Companies, viz.: the Bladers, forgers of blades ; the makers of Haftes and otherwise garnishers of

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=63101
East Indies - April 1632

Calendar of State Papers Colonial, East Indies and Persia, Volume 8

great, but in small pigs of ¾ cwt.; this Governor will let no man buy it, and will give what he pleases. Quicksilver sent to Agra. John Leachland retained. Twelve hundred ffs. Agra indigo ordained to be bought. Amber beads of good hope, but rough. Amber hopeless. Some sword blades found bad. Presents:

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=71447
Anne - January 1704

Calendar of State Papers Domestic: Anne, 1703-4

others, taken before Mathew White, Mayor of Newcastle. Soldart, sworn, says:— Came from Rotterdam about sixteen days since in ballast with flax and sale-[sail-]duck. Brought ten passengers [ details ], whose names he does not know. Landed at Jarrow. Knows nothing of the bundles of sword-blades and hanger

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=59089
Folios lxxi - lxxx - Aug 1408 -

Calendar of letter-books of the city of London: I

workmanship by the Bladesmythes. Thereupon it was agreed that in future a joint scrutiny of blades should from time to time be made by two Masters of the Cutlers and two of the Bladesmythes. Folio lxxi b. Ordinacio int' Cultellar' et Fabros Blade smythes voc'. 12 Oct., 10 Henry IV. [A.D. 1408], came the

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=33680
Journal, January 1777 - Volume 84

Journals of the Board of Trade and Plantations, Volume 14

Order of the Lords of the Privy Council, dated 8th January, 1777, referring to this Board the petition of Thomas Monkland, for leave to export six thousand sword blades to the East Indies, on board the ship Rochford , John Beard, commander. Read an Order of the Lords of the Privy Council, dated January

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=77764
Early Man - Bronze Age

A history of the County of Oxford: Volume 1

(Pl. VI 3 c ), from which also were recovered two so-called rapiers, one 14½ in. long with rounded butt (Pl. VIII 2 a ), the other 15½ in. with square-ended butt and narrower blade, like a third from the river at Reading. Finally, from the Thames come short swords, one 18½ in. long, with two rivets,

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...?compid=101927
Journal, March 1776 - Volume 83

Journals of the Board of Trade and Plantations, Volume 14

Council; vizt. Order of the Lords of the Privy Council, dated February 28th, 1776, referring to this Board, for their consideration and report, the petition of Isaac Pratt, for leave to export ten thousand, five hundred sword blades to the East Indies. Order of the Lords of the Privy Council, dated March

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=77754
November 1656 - An Act for the Exportation of several Commodities of the Breed, Growth and Manufacture of this Commonwealth.

Acts and Ordinances of the Interregnum, 1642-1660

That it shall and may be lawfull to transport beyond the Seas, into any part in Amity with this Commonwealth, all sorts of Arms: That is to say, Muskets, Carbines, Birding or Fowling Pieces, Pistols, Sword and Rapier Blades, Hilts for Swords, Rapiers, or Daggers, Bandaliers, Pikeheads, Halbert-heads

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=56598
House of Lords Journal Volume 18 - 29 March 1708

Journal of the House of Lords: volume 18

and others: Who brought up a Bill, intituled, "An Act for limiting a Time to Persons to come in and make their Claims to any of the forfeited Estates and other Interests in Ireland , sold by the Trustees for Sale of those Estates to the Governor and Company for making hollow Sword-blades in England ,

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=29663
Index - T

Calendar of State Papers Relating to English Affairs in the Archives of Venice, Volume 12

778, 779. -, in sword-blades , English with Turkey, 435. -, in tabinets , Venetian watered, 381. -, in tin , English with Constanti nople, 383. -, in Vallonia. See Gall nuts. -, in velvet , Venetian coloured, 381. -, in white-lead , 507, 508. -, in wine , 24, 29, 145, Muscat, 281, 393; from Crete, 872.

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=95735
House of Lords Journal Volume 18 - 1 April 1708

Journal of the House of Lords: volume 18

and make their Claims to any of the forfeited Estates and other Interests in Ireland , sold by the Trustees for Sale of those Estates to the Governor and Company for making hollow Sword-blades in England , and divers other Purchasers." After some Time, the House was resumed. And the Earl of Stamford

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=29666
Volume 5 - September 3-November 14, 1689

Calendar of Treasury Papers, Volume 1

Ann Hutchins for the delivery of certain sword-blades; submitting the consideration of the case to their Lordships as one of compassion, the petitioner's husband being a Dutchman, and by trade a sword-cutler at Rotterdam, having shipped 24 dozen of sword blades to set up in business in England, which

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=79451
Charles I - volume 328 - July 1-17, 1636

Calendar of State Papers Domestic: Charles I, 1636-7

July 1-17, 1636 July 1. 1. Petition of Benjamin Stone, blade-maker, on Hounslow Heath, to the King. Upon a petition to his Majesty, petitioner showed the great charge he had been at in perfecting the manufacture of sword blades, and entreated his Majesty to take into his store 2,000 blades, which

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=52691

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~~~~~~~~~~~

It has been some years ago I started looking at British commerce via this site
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/

Do regiister. as you can build a shelf.

By the third quarter of the 18th century, tens of thousands of blades were being exported by England (many to the East indies). Prior to the 18th century, notesimilar quantities entering London. Then, note the Hollow Sword Company debacle that went on for a couple of decades.

I don't have an answer for the lily

Cheers

GC