Name that scabbard

Matt Easton · 30th March 2013, 11:34 PM

Hi folks,
I would like to tap into your vast collective knowledge base please.

If you saw a scabbard with an end like this, what weapon would you expect it to go with? The metal is silver:

Many thanks for your help,
Matt

Amuk Murugul · 30th March 2013, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Easton

Hi folks,
I would like to tap into your vast collective knowledge base please.

If you saw a scabbard with an end like this, what weapon would you expect it to go with? The metal is silver:

Many thanks for your help,
Matt

Hullo Matt,

My first guess would be a golok/pedang sheath from the Malay Archipelago. The silver would be lower than Sterling, but probably Swasa.

Best,

Iain · 30th March 2013, 11:53 PM

Asian, this reminds me in some ways of dha scabbards, or even sewar or badik. However these regions are far from my area of specialty. I'm sure other members will have much more informed opinions.

Rick · 30th March 2013, 11:55 PM

Something Indonesian, a klewang perhaps ?
Dimensions ?

Robert · 31st March 2013, 12:22 AM

Yes, dimensions and a photo that shows the complete scabbard would both be of great help.
Best,
Robert

VANDOO · 31st March 2013, 12:27 AM

LIKELY A PEDANG FROM SUMATRA HAD THIS SCABBARD. SEE EXAMPLES

Matt Easton · 31st March 2013, 01:08 AM

Aha! Many thanks all - one of those Sumatran pedang scabbards looks very close. Dimensions won't really help in this case, as it is a 32 inch custom-made example for a European sword. I'm trying to pin down where the colonial officer may have been when the scabbard was made for him.
Further opinions and examples much appreciated.
Matt

Amuk Murugul · 31st March 2013, 03:41 AM

Hullo again Matt,

Here is a foto of some GOLOK SOENDA I happen to have handy.
Apologies for the poor quality. It was taken with a 5yr-old phone.
Note the 'sock's/toe-caps.
Goloks and swords came in a variety of similar sheaths, depending on owner.
You mentioned 'colonial officer', so I would look at circa 19thC Java, West Java in particular, as that was where all 'the heavies' were located. European swords in local sheaths were not so unusual, as European sheaths were usually metal and rusted easily as well as being 'noisy'. Leather sheaths didn't last too long either.

Regards to Ol' Blighty,

Gavin Nugent · 31st March 2013, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Easton

Aha! Many thanks all - one of those Sumatran pedang scabbards looks very close. Dimensions won't really help in this case, as it is a 32 inch custom-made example for a European sword. I'm trying to pin down where the colonial officer may have been when the scabbard was made for him.
Further opinions and examples much appreciated.
Matt

Hi Matt,

The devil is in the detail. The flower in the scabbard throat may add more to the discussion and the four petals sprouting from it. There appears to be more detail just above the flower, in the next section towards the throat opening. I have attached a detailed photo of this area that may also help others discuss this sword for your understanding.

To my eye, the small flower is seen on Burmese swords but not the 4 large outside leaves. I have a Burmese blade here the same flower on the spine and the binding on the scabbrd is typical of the region, a region that was British occupied....but....the scabbard end, it however A-typical of Burmese sword scabbards to my knowledge, which by design points back to the Sumatran swords mentioned above, a region that also uses this flower like motif and shares the same binding method more so than a Dha.

I recall seeing the flower and four large leaves on some Philippine weapons too.

An interesting pickup.

Gavin

Matt Easton · 31st March 2013, 10:23 AM

Many thanks Amuk and Gavin, this is all great info. And yes that's the sword that Gavin posted above

.

To add more grist to the mill, this sword also bears a Latin motto - that of Sarawak as it happens - 'Dum Spiro Spero' (Whilst I breath, I hope).

This motto is carried around a stylised letter S. The S could stand for Sarawak, but if so, I have never found any other Sarawak emblem like that.

Perhaps the S stands for a region of Sarawak, or somewhere else entirely... such as Sumatra.

I initially assumed that this sword was that of a British officer serving under the White Rajahs (Charles Brooke to be precise), but I am now less sure.

The Java examples posted by Amuk above certainly seem to match very closely.

Thanks,
Matt

Gavin Nugent · 31st March 2013, 11:34 AM

An interesting motto Matt.

The scabbard end and type of silver fitting manufacture has been seen on Piso Podangs.

Having this motto along with the design of the scabbard's silver dress, it is possible to be from the English residents of Sarawak.

Attached is an image from the Dr. Anton Willem Nieuwenhuis collection, presented as a stylistic reference for the scabbard end angle, second item from the left.

Thanks for the extra information.

Gavin

Matt Easton · 31st March 2013, 12:54 PM

Thanks Gavin. I think the trail will lead back to Sarawak, but I want to approach this with an open mind at this stage, especially as I can only match the motto to Sarawak, not the emblem.
My current understanding of the military forces serving the Rajah of Sarawak is that they had quite a far-ranging role, including tracking down and killing/capturing pirates*, so I think it is entirely possible that this scabbard could have been made in a neighbouring area, rather than strictly only in Sarawak.

*Especially important to note is that this hilt is a hybrid of the 1822 infantry officer's hilt and the 1827 naval officer's hilt... so we're probably looking at some kind of marine force.

Cheers,
Matt

Gavin Nugent · 31st March 2013, 01:39 PM

Hi Matt.

I look forward to seeing some detailed photos of the sword, motto and emblems when you can.

Gavin

Amuk Murugul · 1st April 2013, 06:58 AM

Hullo everybody!

Matt,

If my description below fits the bill, then fine; if not, then my apologies.

Solid etched wedge-shaped blade including the letter S (SARAWAK) within Brooke motto (DUM SPIRO SPERO), the reverse with S within a wreath of oak leaves, panels of floral scrolls.
Solid brass gothic-style half-basket hilt, also with S within motto surrounded by oak leaves, in low relief; fish-skin covering.
Brass-mounted black leather scabbard. Chape.
83.2cm; 32 3/4in blade.

It was made for Meyer & Mortimer.

Best,

Matt Easton · 1st April 2013, 11:26 AM

Hi Amuk!
Many thanks for pointing this out - a very important piece of the jigsaw puzzle!

I guess this text is from the Thomas Del Mar website? - interestingly this is a slightly later sword to mine (that sword was 1871, mine is 1868), though identical in design (though in that case it had the original navy style leather scabbard, instead of a locally made version as here).

Whilst it is very encouraging that they identified the sword with Sarawak, this unfortunately isn't conclusive proof to me, as they only drew the same conclusions I have - the Wilkinson records do not seem to have confirmed the link.

Meyer & Mortimer still exist

-
http://www.meyerandmortimer.com/

Many thanks,
Matt

Amuk Murugul · 1st April 2013, 10:42 PM

Deleted.

Matt Easton · 5th April 2013, 10:30 AM

Hi guys, so here are some details of the hilt components - any opinions?

Amuk Murugul · 5th April 2013, 12:26 PM

Hullo Matt,

To me, it looks as if the floral decorations are stylised representations:

- four-petal flower: wax apple

- six-petal flower: durian

Best,

Matt Easton · 7th April 2013, 11:20 PM

Thanks for that. Any opinions on the possible geographic origin for these decorations please?

Here are some more pics:

Matt Easton · 11th April 2013, 01:55 PM

To put a cap on this thread - I now know for absolute certain that this sword was made for an officer serving in Sarawak.

So the natural assumption must be that this scabbard was made in Sarawak, replacing the original leather and brass scabbard that Wilkinson would have provided with the sword.

Cheers,
Matt

Gavin Nugent · 11th April 2013, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Easton

To put a cap on this thread - I now know for absolute certain that this sword was made for an officer serving in Sarawak.

So the natural assumption must be that this scabbard was made in Sarawak, replacing the original leather and brass scabbard that Wilkinson would have provided with the sword.

Cheers,
Matt

Don't shelve it just yet Matt.

What was the Absolute proof you now have? I am sure others would also want to know.

Gavin

Matt Easton · 11th April 2013, 08:08 PM

Hi Gavin,
The Wilkinson records show that the sword was sold to Oliver St John, who was the postmaster of Sarawak (presumably he ordered it for a Sarawak officer). Added to this, the Wilkinson records also show the designs for a Sarawak sword belt buckle and blade etching, both which show the S with oak leaves motif and state that they war for Sarawak.
Regards,
Matt

30th March 2013, 11:34 PM	#1
Matt Easton Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Surrey, Great Britain. Posts: 53	Name that scabbard Hi folks, I would like to tap into your vast collective knowledge base please. If you saw a scabbard with an end like this, what weapon would you expect it to go with? The metal is silver: Many thanks for your help, Matt

31st March 2013, 12:27 AM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	LIKELY A PEDANG FROM SUMATRA HAD THIS SCABBARD. SEE EXAMPLES Attached Images

31st March 2013, 03:41 AM	#8
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 460	GOLOK SOENDA Hullo again Matt, Here is a foto of some GOLOK SOENDA I happen to have handy. Apologies for the poor quality. It was taken with a 5yr-old phone. Note the 'sock's/toe-caps. Goloks and swords came in a variety of similar sheaths, depending on owner. You mentioned 'colonial officer', so I would look at circa 19thC Java, West Java in particular, as that was where all 'the heavies' were located. European swords in local sheaths were not so unusual, as European sheaths were usually metal and rusted easily as well as being 'noisy'. Leather sheaths didn't last too long either. Regards to Ol' Blighty, Attached Images Last edited by Amuk Murugul; 31st March 2013 at 03:52 AM.

31st March 2013, 11:34 AM	#11
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	An interesting motto Matt. The scabbard end and type of silver fitting manufacture has been seen on Piso Podangs. Having this motto along with the design of the scabbard's silver dress, it is possible to be from the English residents of Sarawak. Attached is an image from the Dr. Anton Willem Nieuwenhuis collection, presented as a stylistic reference for the scabbard end angle, second item from the left. Thanks for the extra information. Gavin Attached Images

1st April 2013, 06:58 AM	#14
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 460	SARAWAK MILITARY SWORD BY HENRY WILKINSON, PALL MALL, NO. 18205 FOR 1871 Hullo everybody! Matt, If my description below fits the bill, then fine; if not, then my apologies. Solid etched wedge-shaped blade including the letter S (SARAWAK) within Brooke motto (DUM SPIRO SPERO), the reverse with S within a wreath of oak leaves, panels of floral scrolls. Solid brass gothic-style half-basket hilt, also with S within motto surrounded by oak leaves, in low relief; fish-skin covering. Brass-mounted black leather scabbard. Chape. 83.2cm; 32 3/4in blade. It was made for Meyer & Mortimer. Best,

30th March 2013, 11:53 PM	#3
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Asian, this reminds me in some ways of dha scabbards, or even sewar or badik. However these regions are far from my area of specialty. I'm sure other members will have much more informed opinions.

30th March 2013, 11:55 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Something Indonesian, a klewang perhaps ? Dimensions ?

31st March 2013, 12:22 AM	#5
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Yes, dimensions and a photo that shows the complete scabbard would both be of great help. Best, Robert

31st March 2013, 01:08 AM	#7
Matt Easton Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Surrey, Great Britain. Posts: 53	Aha! Many thanks all - one of those Sumatran pedang scabbards looks very close. Dimensions won't really help in this case, as it is a 32 inch custom-made example for a European sword. I'm trying to pin down where the colonial officer may have been when the scabbard was made for him. Further opinions and examples much appreciated. Matt

31st March 2013, 10:23 AM	#10
Matt Easton Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Surrey, Great Britain. Posts: 53	Many thanks Amuk and Gavin, this is all great info. And yes that's the sword that Gavin posted above . To add more grist to the mill, this sword also bears a Latin motto - that of Sarawak as it happens - 'Dum Spiro Spero' (Whilst I breath, I hope). This motto is carried around a stylised letter S. The S could stand for Sarawak, but if so, I have never found any other Sarawak emblem like that. Perhaps the S stands for a region of Sarawak, or somewhere else entirely... such as Sumatra. I initially assumed that this sword was that of a British officer serving under the White Rajahs (Charles Brooke to be precise), but I am now less sure. The Java examples posted by Amuk above certainly seem to match very closely. Thanks, Matt

31st March 2013, 12:54 PM	#12
Matt Easton Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Surrey, Great Britain. Posts: 53	Thanks Gavin. I think the trail will lead back to Sarawak, but I want to approach this with an open mind at this stage, especially as I can only match the motto to Sarawak, not the emblem. My current understanding of the military forces serving the Rajah of Sarawak is that they had quite a far-ranging role, including tracking down and killing/capturing pirates, so I think it is entirely possible that this scabbard could have been made in a neighbouring area, rather than strictly only in Sarawak. Especially important to note is that this hilt is a hybrid of the 1822 infantry officer's hilt and the 1827 naval officer's hilt... so we're probably looking at some kind of marine force. Cheers, Matt

31st March 2013, 01:39 PM	#13
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Hi Matt. I look forward to seeing some detailed photos of the sword, motto and emblems when you can. Gavin

1st April 2013, 11:26 AM	#15
Matt Easton Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Surrey, Great Britain. Posts: 53	Hi Amuk! Many thanks for pointing this out - a very important piece of the jigsaw puzzle! I guess this text is from the Thomas Del Mar website? - interestingly this is a slightly later sword to mine (that sword was 1871, mine is 1868), though identical in design (though in that case it had the original navy style leather scabbard, instead of a locally made version as here). Whilst it is very encouraging that they identified the sword with Sarawak, this unfortunately isn't conclusive proof to me, as they only drew the same conclusions I have - the Wilkinson records do not seem to have confirmed the link. Meyer & Mortimer still exist - http://www.meyerandmortimer.com/ Many thanks, Matt

1st April 2013, 10:42 PM	#16
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 460	Deleted. Last edited by Amuk Murugul; 1st April 2013 at 10:54 PM. Reason: I may have misunderstood previous post

5th April 2013, 10:30 AM	#17
Matt Easton Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Surrey, Great Britain. Posts: 53	Hi guys, so here are some details of the hilt components - any opinions? Attached Images

5th April 2013, 12:26 PM	#18
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 460	Stylised Floral Decorations Hullo Matt, To me, it looks as if the floral decorations are stylised representations: - four-petal flower: wax apple - six-petal flower: durian Best, Last edited by Amuk Murugul; 5th April 2013 at 12:39 PM.

7th April 2013, 11:20 PM	#19
Matt Easton Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Surrey, Great Britain. Posts: 53	Thanks for that. Any opinions on the possible geographic origin for these decorations please? Here are some more pics:

11th April 2013, 01:55 PM	#20
Matt Easton Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Surrey, Great Britain. Posts: 53	To put a cap on this thread - I now know for absolute certain that this sword was made for an officer serving in Sarawak. So the natural assumption must be that this scabbard was made in Sarawak, replacing the original leather and brass scabbard that Wilkinson would have provided with the sword. Cheers, Matt

11th April 2013, 08:08 PM	#22
Matt Easton Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Surrey, Great Britain. Posts: 53	Hi Gavin, The Wilkinson records show that the sword was sold to Oliver St John, who was the postmaster of Sarawak (presumably he ordered it for a Sarawak officer). Added to this, the Wilkinson records also show the designs for a Sarawak sword belt buckle and blade etching, both which show the S with oak leaves motif and state that they war for Sarawak. Regards, Matt