Krazy Kris Krosses

[Spunjer]

hello all,

here's a moro kris i find rather unusual. engraved on both sides are symbols i haven't seen on any moro swords. the closest i've ever seen these designs are on european swords, reason i'm posting this here. actually the more i look at it, the more i think the blade itself was of european origin.
regarding the blade:
it has a total of five flukes (two upper and three lower) on each side of the blade. also, a shallow fuller runs for about two-thirds of its total length.
as far as the symbols, here is how it's arranged:
both sides has seven crosses that reminds me of templar design. in-between these "templar" crosses are smaller crosses that is similar to a shuriken in design. after the fourth templar cross (counting from the handle, on both sides), there are some unusual figures that reminds me of masonic origin. one of these figures looks like an architect's compass, and also, there's an arrowhead looking thing with a cross inside. in the world of moro weapons, there are similar type of figures (arrowhead), but in moro weapons tradition, these figures point out, as in the sharp point of the arrowhead points toward the tip of the blade.; NEVER towards the handle. on this one, well, it seeks like it bucked the system.
anyone familiar with this marks? if this was indeed a european blade at one point, what country would it originally came from, and from what type of sword? also, what would be the age of the sword?

[Spunjer]

also, what would be the age of the sword?

i meant to ask, the age of the blade...

[ThePepperSkull]

Beautiful Kris! Did you purchase this one?

I hope to learn more about the markings as well. Very interesting

[David]

a beautiful enigma...

[Rick]

Ron,
I think it's mid-19th .

How do we reconcile the iconography on the blade with the prevalent religious culture in the area/time ?

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by ThePepperSkull

Beautiful Kris! Did you purchase this one?

I hope to learn more about the markings as well. Very interesting

yep. i just haven't got the time to take my own pics so i just posted the original pictures..

rick, the Maranao country was the most topographically isolated area (surrounded by high plateau which in turn is surrounded by rugged mountain ranges) of the three main Moro country, therefore they were the last to be converted to Islam, and the least subjected to external influences. The spanish had explored the lake country as far back as the early part of 1600's, but had found the terrain and the Maranaos too intimidating to attempt a conquest. it wasn't until 1890 when a determined attempt was made to reach lake lanao, and it would take another year for the spaniards to advance to the shores of lake lanao, heartland of maranao country, in the expense of intense fighting and heavy spanish losses (ironically, the spanish foot soldiers were almost all filipinos, 8,000 strong ). although the spaniards established a few garrisons, it wasn't your typical "it's my weekend off and it's a beautiful day, so i'm going to the marketplace to buy a souvenir for my lovely Maria" kinda place. as a matter of fact, the only wagon road leading to Marawi (the principal town) had to have the trees and foliage cleared 100 feet on both sides to prevent ambushes.

sorry, i'm getting off track and this thread is turning out to be an ethnographic topic, lol. as far as the blade, i still think it was originally european in origin, as a matter of fact, this blade overall profile is somewhat reminiscent of another Maranao kris i have, http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=silver+surfer. i'm hoping the european blade experts can help me with the icons on the blade. does it look like any of the maker's marks found on european swords? i'm with you rick, that the kris itself is from the 1800's, but i have a feeling the blade is much, much older itself...

[kai]

Hello Ron,

Congrats, I'm glad you snapped up this sweet kris!

Maranao, 2nd half of 19th c. seems right to me. The other kris you referred to still looks like a (mid 19th c. or a bit earlier?) Sulu blade to me. I'm afraid that I don't grasp very close similarities or is it mainly a feel/balance thing? Could you post a pic of both pieces side by side, please?

Frome the pics, I don't get the impression that this is a reworked European blade: The pamor at (or in front of) the sampir area looks undisturbed, especially visible on the left hand side; also the form and fullering of the blade does look like nice Moro work to me. Since some of the talismanic marks are situated inside the shallow central fuller while those at the base are engraved into the convex blade surface, I think that the chances that this is an European blade with original European marks are slim to none.

I believe this blade would benefit from careful repolishing and an even etch - this would certainly allow to verify its construction and origin.

Regards,
Kai

[Spunjer]

sorry, been working some crazy hours this past week...

Frome the pics, I don't get the impression that this is a reworked European blade: The pamor at (or in front of) the sampir area looks undisturbed, especially visible on the left hand side; also the form and fullering of the blade does look like nice Moro work to me. Since some of the talismanic marks are situated inside the shallow central fuller while those at the base are engraved into the convex blade surface, I think that the chances that this is an European blade with original European marks are slim to none.

great point, kai! by not getting a peep from our european experts, i take it this pattern is unfamiliar to them.. i've requested to have this thread transferred to the ethno forum.

The other kris you referred to still looks like a (mid 19th c. or a bit earlier?) Sulu blade to me. I'm afraid that I don't grasp very close similarities or is it mainly a feel/balance thing? Could you post a pic of both pieces side by side, please?

i will take some pics per requested either tonite or tomorrow, and will give my explanation, but why do you think the blade is sulu?

[David R]

Crosses turn up elsewhere in the Islamic world, the Tuareg and the "cross of Agades" for instance. In non/pre Christian iconography it often symbolises the sun's rays.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Spunjer,
Im with everyone else in agreeing this is an extremely nice Moro keris, and while I know little on these weapons I do find the crosses intriguing. Without entering the area of the somewhat daunting classification and nomenclature of Moro keris, I am wondering why this blade would be considered to be possibly European.
From what I understand, the guard (gangya?) on these blades was inclined to be made separately on early examples, so the blade itself having this distinct flared blade base would be understandable if the guard and stirrup were added on to a European blade. It would also be understandable to have Spanish weaponry available, and the Spanish type helmets and mail were used by the Moro.
However I dont know of any European blades with this type of parallel fuller configurations offhand. The crosses do of course lean toward those often seen on European blades, but in those cases typically either enclose inscriptions or names, and are not used in what appears to be a linear numeric sequence. Native use of these kinds of marks does seem to follow that characteristic. I would point out that crosses, along with other well known marks such as the running wolf, sickle marks, anchors etc. are not makers marks, though in some cases certain makers may have favored the use of certain ones as well as number combinations and inscriptions.

From what I understand of Moro blades (again, very liittle it does seem they often carried talismanic inscriptions, I think there was a article in "Arts of Asia" some years ago by Robert Cato. As has been well noted, the cross as a symbol far predates Christianity, and has been known to represent cosmological symbolism as well as the four cardinal directions. These applications are found in many contexts outside religious themes, and are known to occur in those of various religions outside the more typically observed Christian uses.

I would consider these crosses to be Moro native applied and most likely adopted in talismanic parlance with numerically oriented basis, with the other symbolics interspersed. The heraldic style cross is most likely an artistic interpretation of those seen on European blades.

[VVV]

Nice catch Ron,
I waited too long and then it was gone...

The cross is, as Jim mentioned, often used as a universal geometric pattern to symbolize the four cardinal directions.
On talismans, in several other Muslim regions, it disperses evil forces away from the carrier, like a metaphysical shield.

Michael

[Spunjer]

thank you david and thank you, jim, for a thorough explanation! the european blade angle was due to the talismanic symbols. my train of thought were as follows: heraldic cross on the kris, hence european in origin since it was something i don't ever recall seeing on any moro weapon before.. i reckon it was easy to jump to that conclusion due to the spaniards' presence. i have to bring it up to the more knowledgeable european weapons collector if it was indeed what i thought it was. well, that clarifies that...

michael, have you ever seen these types of symbols in any of your moro swords? even those weird marks somewhat in the middle of the cross sequences doesn't seem to fit on any talismanic markings in the moro realm..

[VVV]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

[...] michael, have you ever seen these types of symbols in any of your moro swords? even those weird marks somewhat in the middle of the cross sequences doesn't seem to fit on any talismanic markings in the moro realm..

No, never. But I have this kris with five stars in a cross along its blade. It's also a (related?) motif I haven't seen on any other blade. Because of traveling, trade and pilgrimage odd motifs show up now and then, especially if they have a magic charge.

Michael

[migueldiaz]

the bagobo shield (upper right hand corner in the pic) sometimes have cross-like symbols, too ...

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

the bagobo shield (upper right hand corner in the pic) sometimes have cross-like symbols, too ...

i think i see where you're going with this, lorenz... geographically, how close are the bagobos with either the maguindanaos or maranaos???
i notice the pattern going down. could just be a coincident. i notice the shield smack in the middle as well...

[Battara]

I thought the Bagobo were in the southeastern part of Mindanao while the Maguindanao and Maranao are on the northwest of the island.............

However, could the sign also be for the 4 directions as well?

[Spunjer]

possibility, jose, but why aren't these symbols more commonly used? my assumption on where lorenz was going was whoever owned this kris has strong bagobo ties; perhaps a former bagobo slave that eventually stayed with the tribe, or something to that effect.

btw, googled the area where the bagobos lived. and they were practically next door to the maguindanaos (upland bagobo, that is)...

[migueldiaz]

ron, no particular direction i'm going ... just muddling through

but yes, the bagobos are very close geographically to the maguindanaos, if not next door neighbors:

[migueldiaz]

the circle atop an inverted 'v' is also reminiscent of lumad iconography on their brasswork (the lumad kris pic is from erik farrow, and the top inset is from my lumad panabas) ...

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

ron, no particular direction i'm going ... just muddling through

but yes, the bagobos are very close geographically to the maguindanaos, if not next door neighbors:

nevertheless, salamat lorenz!
very interesting topic, but all we can do is hypothesize at this point. the bagobo angle is a good possibility. the compass looking icon is eerily similar..

[Jim McDougall]

Since these Moro weapons are far outside my usual areas I have really been enjoyong the input here, thanks very much Lorenzo and Jose and Ron for posting this.
It seems that markings are commonly lifted from many outside sources and influences much the same as European marks were copied in North Africa as well as many cultures. Markings which fit well in the parlance of local lore, superstitions and talismanic properties and were often selected for their similarity or interpretative applications.

With that perspective, I wonder how reliable classification to certain tribal groups really is based on these kinds of markings and motif. It seems that through various kinds of contact they would adopt favored selections and use them along with others.

All best regards,
Jim

[migueldiaz]

Thanks Jim.

Ron, a related thought is that a lot more Lumad (i.e., Bagobos, Mandayas, etc. -- the non-Islam and non-Christian ethnic people of Mindanao) converted to Christianity, as compared to Moros, as we both know.

And continuing on with our speculation, for me it's not a remote possibility for a Lumad who has heard of Christianity to 'hedge' his bet for good luck by adopting the cross icon on top of the usual sun and serpent-croc symbols on his shield.

In fact the peoples of our islands are very syncretistic when it comes to religion. Even up to now.

[Dimasalang]

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

In fact the peoples of our islands are very syncretistic when it comes to religion. Even up to now.

I always tend to believe this theory. While many folks(particularly outside the Philippines) would like to believe it is always either one or the other, black and white(with no gray area).

Even stuff like the Agimat or Anting Anting talismans. It is well known to be dated back to pre-hispanic times, but the symbols you see now associated with them are mostly Christian in design. Some believing the converted natives actually just substituted their old symbols, words, and spiritual beings for those the Spanish forced on to the natives...so now they are Christian saints, symbols, latin prayers(oricions). Freemasonry as well being incorporated in these designs, since during the turn of the 20th century, Freemasonry greatly impacted these areas by Filipino leaders of the revolution...particularly those who hid out and made their headquarters in places like Mt Banahaw and Mt Cristobal. Attached is an old Anting Anting protection vest...similar to what groups like the Pulajanes would wear. Sorry for getting off topic, but I think it somewhat parallels this topic.

[David R]

Happened everywhere Christianity was imposed, Vodun gods in Haiti have a "Saintly" identity, eg Oguan = Santiago . Even here the old festivals and Gods took new identities, Christmas is the old Solturna, the Green Man is carved in Medieval churches, and St Bridgit is the new avatar of the Crow Goddess...allegedly. Your ordinary person just wants protection from the dark forces, and will take it from wherever it might be gotten. (Let's not talk about Shiela na Gig).
When you get down to it, a lot of the Western swordsmiths marks are talismanic, some folk-Christian and some, half moons, wolves and such perhaps of more eclectic origin.
Add to that the reinterpretation of Western marks in Africa, noted on Kaskara and Takouba,...crosses are among the least dubious symbols you could find!..Sorry to go on like this...just something I find interesting.

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

With that perspective, I wonder how reliable classification to certain tribal groups really is based on these kinds of markings and motif. It seems that through various kinds of contact they would adopt favored selections and use them along with others.

All best regards,
Jim

this is where it gets complicated, jim. certain markings can be attributed to a particular group, as in what is known as ukkil, or okir designs in which each major tribe has a particular style. some markings tends to be universal, as in those asterisk on michael's example..

Even stuff like the Agimat or Anting Anting talismans. It is well known to be dated back to pre-hispanic times, but the symbols you see now associated with them are mostly Christian in design. Some believing the converted natives actually just substituted their old symbols, words, and spiritual beings for those the Spanish forced on to the natives...so now they are Christian saints, symbols, latin prayers(oricions). Freemasonry as well being incorporated in these designs, since during the turn of the 20th century, Freemasonry greatly impacted these areas by Filipino leaders of the revolution...particularly those who hid out and made their headquarters in places like Mt Banahaw and Mt Cristobal. Attached is an old Anting Anting protection vest...similar to what groups like the Pulajanes would wear. Sorry for getting off topic, but I think it somewhat parallels this topic.

not off topic at all, dimasalang. these incorporations was not only a phenomenon in the christian part but was also done in islam south (hence, folk islam)...