Antique Backsword

stilgar · 21st January 2023, 11:01 PM

Hi All,

Can anyone tell me anything about this sword?

Only one edge is sharp which I believe makes it a backsword?

The handle is wooden.

It has a sun etched into it.

Appears genuinely old (to me).

Thanks a lot!

Teisani · 22nd January 2023, 10:11 AM

The blade looks old but also cut down. Don't know about the sun etching. The double fullers look similar to those on this British 1788 pattern heavy cavalry sword. https://www.militariahub.com/wp-cont...YCAVTROOP2.jpg
So I would guess late 1700s to early 1800s.
Regarding the hilt... no idea.

stilgar · 22nd January 2023, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teisani

The blade looks old but also cut down. Don't know about the sun etching. The double fullers look similar to those on this British 1788 pattern heavy cavalry sword. https://www.militariahub.com/wp-cont...YCAVTROOP2.jpg
So I would guess late 1700s to early 1800s.
Regarding the hilt... no idea.

Thanks a lot!

David R · 22nd January 2023, 04:10 PM

It's a reused blade in an ethnic hilt, possibly Berber, try it in the ethnic forum.

Jim McDougall · 22nd January 2023, 04:49 PM

This is indeed a cut down cavalry blade of 1780s-90s possibly French, certainly European, could be British. This type of wood hilt is typically associated with regions in Tunisia and environs. It is hard to say how long this blade circulated in this sphere, but backswords do seem to be seen on these types .

fernando · 22nd January 2023, 05:22 PM

Let us then move this topic to the Ethno forum, to see how further things develop on the hilt.

Peter Andeweg · 23rd January 2023, 09:53 AM

This is a Berber sword, most of these are attributed to Tunesia. The hilt is made of horn, which sometimes looks like wood. Many local and European import blades were used. Often with a self-made leather scabbard. Many are decorated with European marks such as crescent moon and eyelash marks which originate in Germany and Italy. It dates from the 19th century.

In 1954, Henri Lhote writes the following in his book ‘Note on the origin of Tuareg’s sword blades‘:

”II and III- Genovese marks, but also done in Germany, in Solingen, by Clemens Stamm (circa 1590); in Italy, in Padua, by Pietrus Antonio Furmigano (circa 1565); in Spain, by Juan Martinez from Toledo (circa 1565) and also by Pedro de Belmonte, of which we already spoke. The Tuareg craftsmen, who call that mark ayor, the moon, or télit, have imitated it frequently.”

He referred to an illustration which I will try to add. Another photo is added of an arms dealer in Tripoli selling a similar sword.

fernando · 23rd January 2023, 10:15 AM

Great input, Peter

.

Jim McDougall · 23rd January 2023, 05:46 PM

This is absolutely brilliant insight Peter! Thank you so much. As someone long fascinated with Saharan swords, I very much appreciate this added detail, especially the material from Lhote, who was an important writer on these weapons and Tuaregs.

I am curious on the 'moons', which long ago I found these referred to as 'dukari' (I think it was Rodd) and tried to find European parallels to these placed in pairs on the Tuareg blades. In Briggs they appear on 'Hausa' kaskara it appears.
These makers listed are important as sources for the European blades which must have inspired the native blade makers.

Tripoli was long one of the key points of entry for European blades which then entered the Trans Saharan trade routes, so easy to imagine the numbers of European blades which have likely passed through here for centuries.

JoeCanada42 · 24th January 2023, 04:01 AM

hey, very nice sword !,

concerning moon markings
I was reading this post and saw a similarity with something else I was researching.. just interesting, may lead nowhere but I thought it was cool.

TVV · 24th January 2023, 04:17 AM

Here is another one of these swords I have, with a saber blade and similar markings. The scabbard is wooden covered by leather, with stitching somewhat reminiscent of the stitching on Ottoman swords. There is a small catalogue of the Royal Armories called "Islamic Arms and Armour" by Thom Richardson, and on page 70 it has one of these Tunisian swords, correctly identified. Tirri also shows an example among some takoubas in his books.

ariel · 24th January 2023, 08:15 AM

Some time ago Czerny’s sold a straight-bladed one for $1,000 + 25% or something like that. No scabbard.

I got two of those: one with original blade and scabbard, another shortened without scabbard.

They are very, very rare. For some reason, the same is true for al North African weapons except for Moroccan ones. Can’t understand the reason for that discrepancy.

stilgar · 25th January 2023, 06:51 PM

Thanks so much for the help everyone!! Really appreciate it, i'd never have figured this out on my own..

Apologies for not replying earlier, i'm not getting notifications and forgot to check back after my last post..

midelburgo · 26th January 2023, 03:37 PM

When I visited Malta knights armoury some 6 years ago, they had lots of muslim weapons from the 1565 siege, including quite some from the Algerian contingents. I could not find any work studying them. It is curious the British fell on the European weapon collections, but I think not so much on North Africa ones.

Teisani · 26th January 2023, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by midelburgo

When I visited Malta knights armoury some 6 years ago, they had lots of muslim weapons from the 1565 siege, including quite some from the Algerian contingents. I could not find any work studying them. It is curious the British fell on the European weapon collections, but I think not so much on North Africa ones.

Is this the one? Valletta Palace Armoury. Couldn't find any better pictures. https://www.123rf.com/photo_10694134...tta-malta.html

21st January 2023, 11:01 PM	#1
stilgar Member Join Date: Jun 2021 Posts: 10	Antique Backsword Hi All, Can anyone tell me anything about this sword? Only one edge is sharp which I believe makes it a backsword? The handle is wooden. It has a sun etched into it. Appears genuinely old (to me). Thanks a lot! Attached Images

23rd January 2023, 09:53 AM	#7
Peter Andeweg Member Join Date: Feb 2020 Location: Vlissingen, Netherlands Posts: 71	This is a Berber sword, most of these are attributed to Tunesia. The hilt is made of horn, which sometimes looks like wood. Many local and European import blades were used. Often with a self-made leather scabbard. Many are decorated with European marks such as crescent moon and eyelash marks which originate in Germany and Italy. It dates from the 19th century. In 1954, Henri Lhote writes the following in his book ‘Note on the origin of Tuareg’s sword blades‘: ”II and III- Genovese marks, but also done in Germany, in Solingen, by Clemens Stamm (circa 1590); in Italy, in Padua, by Pietrus Antonio Furmigano (circa 1565); in Spain, by Juan Martinez from Toledo (circa 1565) and also by Pedro de Belmonte, of which we already spoke. The Tuareg craftsmen, who call that mark ayor, the moon, or télit, have imitated it frequently.” He referred to an illustration which I will try to add. Another photo is added of an arms dealer in Tripoli selling a similar sword. Attached Images

24th January 2023, 04:01 AM	#10
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	hey, very nice sword !, concerning moon markings I was reading this post and saw a similarity with something else I was researching.. just interesting, may lead nowhere but I thought it was cool. Attached Images

24th January 2023, 04:17 AM	#11
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,619	Here is another one of these swords I have, with a saber blade and similar markings. The scabbard is wooden covered by leather, with stitching somewhat reminiscent of the stitching on Ottoman swords. There is a small catalogue of the Royal Armories called "Islamic Arms and Armour" by Thom Richardson, and on page 70 it has one of these Tunisian swords, correctly identified. Tirri also shows an example among some takoubas in his books. Attached Images

22nd January 2023, 10:11 AM	#2
Teisani Member Join Date: Oct 2022 Location: Romania Posts: 314	The blade looks old but also cut down. Don't know about the sun etching. The double fullers look similar to those on this British 1788 pattern heavy cavalry sword. https://www.militariahub.com/wp-cont...YCAVTROOP2.jpg So I would guess late 1700s to early 1800s. Regarding the hilt... no idea.

22nd January 2023, 04:10 PM	#4
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	It's a reused blade in an ethnic hilt, possibly Berber, try it in the ethnic forum.

22nd January 2023, 04:49 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,937	This is indeed a cut down cavalry blade of 1780s-90s possibly French, certainly European, could be British. This type of wood hilt is typically associated with regions in Tunisia and environs. It is hard to say how long this blade circulated in this sphere, but backswords do seem to be seen on these types .

22nd January 2023, 05:22 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Let us then move this topic to the Ethno forum, to see how further things develop on the hilt.

23rd January 2023, 10:15 AM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Great input, Peter .

23rd January 2023, 05:46 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,937	This is absolutely brilliant insight Peter! Thank you so much. As someone long fascinated with Saharan swords, I very much appreciate this added detail, especially the material from Lhote, who was an important writer on these weapons and Tuaregs. I am curious on the 'moons', which long ago I found these referred to as 'dukari' (I think it was Rodd) and tried to find European parallels to these placed in pairs on the Tuareg blades. In Briggs they appear on 'Hausa' kaskara it appears. These makers listed are important as sources for the European blades which must have inspired the native blade makers. Tripoli was long one of the key points of entry for European blades which then entered the Trans Saharan trade routes, so easy to imagine the numbers of European blades which have likely passed through here for centuries.

24th January 2023, 08:15 AM	#12
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Some time ago Czerny’s sold a straight-bladed one for $1,000 + 25% or something like that. No scabbard. I got two of those: one with original blade and scabbard, another shortened without scabbard. They are very, very rare. For some reason, the same is true for al North African weapons except for Moroccan ones. Can’t understand the reason for that discrepancy.

25th January 2023, 06:51 PM	#13
stilgar Member Join Date: Jun 2021 Posts: 10	Thanks so much for the help everyone!! Really appreciate it, i'd never have figured this out on my own.. Apologies for not replying earlier, i'm not getting notifications and forgot to check back after my last post..

26th January 2023, 03:37 PM	#14
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 256	When I visited Malta knights armoury some 6 years ago, they had lots of muslim weapons from the 1565 siege, including quite some from the Algerian contingents. I could not find any work studying them. It is curious the British fell on the European weapon collections, but I think not so much on North Africa ones.