Smallsword Info (named Sebastian Ernandes)

[RogerFox]

Hello everyone fellows. I'm a mail armor collector and restorer, but i recently bought a very nice smallsword. I would like your knowledge to learn a bit more about it... if possible

As you can see on the blade with the triple fuller there is an inscription XX Sabastian X Ernandes XX. I know that probably is a "fake" name as they used to make for make more valuable the blade itself... but you can also see the "anchor" mark at the end of the fuller.

The hilt is quite interesting, couse it looks composed in different periods, plus the (arch guard, i don't know the name) is made by movable pieces and not from a single molded one as usual.

Any tought about this piece that can help me identify it? Thank you very much.

[fernando]

Welcome to the forum, Roger .
You are right in saying that famous master names are often used to value up swords made by common smiths ... or even pure fakes.
Sebastian Hernandez was the name for both father and son. We can see their personal marks in the Toledo Palomares nomina (chart). You may check if their marks are shown in the blade ricasso (behind the guard). It could be that this hilt doesn't have a Toledan origin, judging by its style. But don't rely in my humble judgement. Let us just wait for members more within this typology.



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[RogerFox]

I got someone that told me the blade could be a german one. But i’m not an expert so… Is there an high chance that blade and hilth are from differend period… and even the hilth components are probably from different provenance.

[Jim McDougall]

Fernando, thank you for always furnishing references from Palomares, which is such a valuable resource, and noting the Hernandez father and son. I have always wondered about the '3' which has been suggested (inconclusively) this might be a cursive 'Z' for Zaragoza, where some Toledo makers also worked.

This very attractive small sword is Georgian, hilted in the faceted 'cut steel' manner of Boulton, late 18th century London.
The use of spurious Spanish names and marks on sword blades was very much standard practice in Germany, especially Solingen, who of course was a primary source for English cutlers.

The use of SEBASTIAN (often without the surname) was not necessarily common, but relatively frequent on blades through the 17th century, so this blade is of course surely from much earlier period. Most likely it might have been a heirloom blade remounted into a more fashionable hilt of later time.

In analogy:
Attached is a Scottish basket hilt of Glasgow form mounted about end of 17th c. with a quite early Solingen blade (see Wirsberg mark c. 1620s?) and with the name SEBASTIAN in large letters. This of course alludes to the Hernandez as discussed, but the lettering of course unusual....the reversed S sometimes may have nuanced connection to 'magic' symbols. The familiar 'anchor' was another somewhat nuanced device from Spain spuriously used by Solingen artisans decorating blades.

The 'arches' mentioned are the pas d'ane rings, which were typically vestigial, that is somewhat flatter, in this late period.

[RogerFox]

Thank you Jim, you looks pretty sure abut what you are saying. Thats cool. One thing that really catch my eyes is the fact that the name calligraphy is made very well, for sure who made it took his time to give it a very good look. The way the A are done is quite unique.

Anyway with the "arch" i was referring to the big one, where you put the four fingers. That one is composed by separately 3 pieces and all of them are free to move... instead of just 1 molded one.


A video will show this quite well, but i dunno if i can upload one.

[fernando]

It is admitable that name misspells in sword blades, although often practiced by imitators, also occur with the genuine owners; omiting the H or writing S instead of Z in Hernandez could also happen.
One thing noticed with Hernandez master/s is that, their personal mark seems to always appear in their blades. Assuming Roger's blade is genuine, the only reason the mark in the ricasso doesn't show would be becasuse it was hidden by the ferrule used to set it up with the present hilt assembly. But of course, this is my fantasy working.
As for the symbol in their mark being a Z and not a 3, perhaps doubts should cease, as well known period authors, Lhermite for one, treat it as a Z. Either drawing it in their notes or even name it in the feminine, while the number 3 is masculine.





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[toaster5sqn]

What you are calling the arch then is correctly known as the knuckle bow these days. Although I am aware of one period source (Rowarth) who refers to it as the 'ward iron'.

Robert

[fernando]

Originally Posted by toaster5sqn

What you are calling the arch then is correctly known as the knuckle bow these days. Although I am aware of one period source (Rowarth) who refers to it as the 'ward iron'...

So you have cracked the riddle, Robert. Good shot .

[Jim McDougall]

Fernando thank you again for the detailed notes on the '3' which perfectly explains it as the letter Z in this parlance.
Robert, excellent notes on the nomenclature, which has changed through the centuries and is often confusing semantically.

May I ask which reference is 'Rowarth' ? the name is not familiar.
The term 'ward iron' is intriguing!
Other terms are fascinating as well, such as pas d'ane .

I think some of the hilt terms Fernando has shared over the years are most colorful as used in Portuguese, such as the 'boca de caballo' for the hit of the 'bilbo' sword etc.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...I think some of the hilt terms Fernando has shared over the years are most colorful as used in Portuguese, such as the 'boca de caballo' for the hit of the 'bilbo' sword etc.

Actually Spanish (Castillian), meaning "horse's mouth" in the Spaniards language .

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Actually Spanish (Castillian), meaning "horse's mouth" in the Spaniards language .

Thank you Fernando. Far from being a linguist, I never am clear on just how closely (or far apart) these Iberian languages are. I do know that here, when those speaking Portuguese (or the form from Caribbean, Florida) try to communicate with Mexican folks, they might as well be from other planets!
Of course 'Mexican' does not go far in Madrid either.

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The 'arches' mentioned are the pas d'ane rings, which were typically vestigial, that is somewhat flatter, in this late period.

This is a common mistake that has been reprinted in several books. “Pas d’ane” is a French term which literally translates to ‘donkey’s hoof’ that is used for a specific style of sword guard, because of its appearance from above. In English we would call it a clamshell guard, because from above it looks like an opened clamshell.

The half rings between the crossguard / knuckle bow and shell guard are called ‘Annulets’.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

May I ask which reference is 'Rowarth' ? the name is not familiar.
The term 'ward iron' is intriguing!
Other terms are fascinating as well, such as pas d'ane

Charles Roworth was the author of the late 18th Century treatise on sword fighting titled “The Art of Defence on Foot”. It is a popular training manual for HEMA practitioners of late 18th and early 19th Century fencing.

Copies of the treatise are available online for free.

[Radboud]

for reference (source):

[Jim McDougall]

That is EXCELLENT elucidation Radboud!
Its great to have the proper updates on terms, I saw the donkey hoof thing in Egerton Castle (1885).

[fernando]

A great input by Radboud. In fact, the widespread notion of what the pas d'ane would be, is wrong; still we can see it being used by countless authors. In the same source provided (now uploaded) we have a drawing of how this part is usually wrongly named.
But while this the pas d'ane gallicism was adopted all over, other parts of the guard were visibly not imported, such as the term "revers" (translating to "reverse") for knuckle bow, or knuckle guard.
Remember the image shown above was taken from the Fort Ticonderoga, one of French origin. Could this be the reason for the rare appearance of the "revers" term ?.



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[toaster5sqn]

Thanks to Radbound for answering Jim's question to me before I got to it.

Robert

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Fernando thank you again for the detailed notes on the '3' which perfectly explains it as the letter Z in this parlance.
Robert, excellent notes on the nomenclature, which has changed through the centuries and is often confusing

Is this related to the cedilla (ceda) and zeda Çç? I see the cedilla in older Spanish texts, probably into the late 17th maybe early 18th centuries?

Second question: Which of these two diagrams regarding pas d'ane is correct, or is it relative to which language you are discussing sword anatomy in?




PS I answered my own question in part before finishing the post. This tidbit is from Wikipedia:

"Zeta (UK: /ˈziːtə/,[1] US: /ˈzeɪtə/; uppercase Ζ, lowercase ζ; Ancient Greek: ζῆτα, Demotic Greek: ζήτα, classical [d͡zɛ̌:ta] or [zdɛ̌:ta] zē̂ta; Greek pronunciation: [ˈzita] zíta) is the sixth letter of the Greek alphabet. In the system of Greek numerals, it has a value of 7. It was derived from the Phoenician letter zayin Zayin. Letters that arose from zeta include the Roman Z and Cyrillic З."

So... the letter we are discussing to my understanding is basically a lowercase Greek "z" with a diacritical mark?

Fernando the "3" being masculine effects the cidilla/ceda/cedilha, as well in medieval texts?

Edit: Attached is a picture of a zeta. The lower case looks a lot like the various incarnations of what we are discussing.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

... Is this related to the cedilla (ceda) and zeda Çç? I see the cedilla in older Spanish texts, probably into the late 17th maybe early 18th centuries?

To put it simple, without digging into academic origins of the alphabet, like the letter Z being rebaptized Zeta by the old Greeks and all, the letter designed by Palomares in his chart, which looks like it doesn't betray the one in the punzones of Sebastian Hernandez, is a minuscle manuscript Z. Perhaps we ought to consider how writing styles were 'flexible' during early periods, specially if sword smiths were not so literate. I understand that, looking at that mark with our modern eyes, we are driven to see a 3 instead of a Z ... which is wrong.
Mind you, if iam talking nonsense don't tie me to whiping post .

Originally Posted by Interested Party

...Second question: Which of these two diagrams regarding pas d'ane is correct, or is it relative to which language you are discussing sword anatomy in?...

Based on the article provided above by Radboud, which perfectly sounds like a reliable source, the legitimate pas d'ane is depicted in post #13 and the misinterpreted one shown inpost #15. Whether its wrong assumption was due to a language miscarriage i wouldn't know, but (free) translating the first paragraphs from the said source we have that:

To avoid further derailing the discussion on the 1788 sword, here is another subject relating to the donkey step.

The donkey step (pas d'ane) is often understood to be the rings present on the hilt of court swords and rapiers.
This is an error which seems to have crept into the vocabulary of collectors in the 19th century. Indeed, if there are very few clear definitions of the term, the most precise is given to us by Sr. Phillibert de la Touche in his famous treatise "The true principles of the sword alone, published in 1670".
De La Touche therefore explains to us here that the guard plate is made up of two pas d'ane, which are its two bivalve parts. The big one and the little one ...
(The whole article is to long to transcribe here).



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[Jim McDougall]

well put Fernando, as always. Anyone imagining there was any sort of strict adherence to alphabets, spelling or grammar through the centuries and with transliteration, is in for a big surprise.

Arms writers in the 19th century certainly didn't do us any favors. It seems we have spent decades trying to untangle all of these terms, phrases etc. applied to arms and armor in those times . These were, as with much of the 'historical writing', thoroughly laced with 'lore' and misperceptions.

Most of these have been so thoroughly ingrained in the colloquial idioms of the collecting world that it would be a semantic nightmare to try to change them now. Still for serious students of arms, it is good to have these kinds of details to cross refererence...I for one am intently adjusting my notes
Thank you so much guys!

[Interested Party]

Thanks Fernando and Jim. I appreciate your clarification on those two issues. I find the flexibility of the scripts fascinating and enlightening. I somehow thought the numerical value of 7 not to mention the miniscule z sometimes looking vaguely like a European 7 with a line might trigger Jim's talent of global learning.

As an apology for helping to derail this thread I wanted to post pictures with improved visibility of the inscription and sword profile. I also want to ask a question I am surprised that hasn't been asked already, is this a Spanish rapier blade remounted into an English small sword hilt? Maybe I'm just a bit obtuse.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

... I also want to ask a question I am surprised that hasn't been asked already, is this a Spanish rapier blade remounted into an English small sword hilt? Maybe I'm just a bit obtuse.

My post #6 was somehow an approach on how tricky smiths names may be an indication of authorship by judging on the the spelling of their names on blades. This blade looks like top grade. It would take an expert to define whether it is a true work of Sebastian Hernandez. With my ignorance, it does look so.

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by fernando

My post #6 was somehow an approach on how tricky smiths names may be an indication of authorship by judging on the the spelling of their names on blades. This blade looks like top grade. It would take an expert to define whether it is a true work of Sebastian Hernandez. With my ignorance, it does look so.

Rather than exact workshop, I am asking if this blade profile looks in the Spanish style. Does the hilt look English with its grip and pommel or French in its donkey's hoof guard? I would think it is an older blade and newer hilt, I assume in its working life. I have not seen dimensions of the sword and blade so I have been looking and wondering is it shortened? How does its tip move? By its look I would guess it parries well, but is the tip slow? The pommel is big enough that it could possibly balance the blade.

& Fernando I think you are being overly modest.

Rogerfox welcome. It will be nice to have a mail specialist to answer question at the forum.

[Jim McDougall]

It seems we have been remiss in not formally welcoming Roger to the forum, and especially for bringing in such a great example small sword for discussion. The best thing with this forum has always been the sharing of such examples by members and the discussion, with which we all learn, together.

The entries Radboud has placed here on the proper nomenclature are remarkable! and a perfect example of how we all continue to learn by sharing here. Though I have obsessively studied arms history for more years than I can say exactly, I often still feel a novice as there is so much to learn, and only a network of specialists such as reside here can possibly answer the countless questions that come with every unique discovery.
Nobody can effectively know everything obviously, but collectively the resounding strength of the comprehensive knowledge here is formidable.

To that, I.P., your questions are well placed as are your observations, and you are absolutely in no way, obtuse!

In my opinion, this seems certainly appears to be a German made rapier blade which is of heirloom quality and a likely of course about mid 17th century. The most compelling indicators are of course the spelling of the name, as well as the punctuating 'x's which were a well established convention it seems with Solingen blades. It should be noted as far as 'Spanish style', in the mid 17th century, Toledo was effectively in decline and all but defunct by the end of the century. The innovative German smiths were adept at duplicating not only the features and style of the Spanish blades, but readily adopted and spuriously applied the names and markings accordingly. I actually have a rapier blade which came from a shipwreck dating in 1690s intended to represent a Toledo maker (Aiala) but with atypical Spanish punzone, thus clearly a Solingen product.

The hilt is English and of latter 18th century, and of the faceted cut steel fashion associated primarily with Matthew Boulton in Soho at that time.
While the small sword in this period was regarded as 'in decline' as far as a fashionable accoutrement in gentleman's wear, fencing had become powerfully popular. In England fencing masters such as Angelo had brought the art into high dimension.

Regarding the bilobate guard, which is of course typical of the small sword, this shape and style was ubiquitously used in these type swords in virtually all countries using the small sword. While commonly called a shell guard colloquially, the rather colorful term describing 'donkeys hoof' (pas d'ane) is simply the apparently proper nomenclature. So the guard would not denote French origin of the hilt, and what is so notably hard about identifying small swords is the universality of the hilt elements.

It seems likely that in the gentry, those who were deeply enamored of the fencing art might well have desired a sword in the high fashion of the time mounted with a fine rapier blade in use in the period of the high masters of the previous century. Whether actually used or not, the profound status of such a sword would be proudly worn, and no doubt, such a blade shown off in accord.

The hubris and obsession with prestige and status of these times in the end of the 18th into the early 19th century in the gentry are often not well realized, but one case in point that I think a good illustration would be the renowned Beau Brummel. While not saying this sword has anything to do with him obviously, the analogy is to illustrate what I mean.

As far as the swords functionality, it is of course hard to say without handling it, but I would presume it would handle well as required. Remember these were worn primarily as elements of fashion, but could be used, mostly as a deterrent, in self defense. In the business of dueling, which is sketchy at best, most likely epee or saber specifically intended would be employed.

In all, a MOST attractive and historically intriguing example!

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Rather than exact workshop, I am asking if this blade profile looks in the Spanish style.

As i said, it would take a rather experienced person to define such attribution; as the smith's punzones are potentialy hidden by that adapted tang ferrule. Not so easy to judge by the blade style, as different masters didn't follow a Toledo pattern but worked on their own blade profiles. In reading Lhermite, one tends to understand that Hernandez recasso blades were mainly 'llanos' but also 'buhidos', two swords i can not find in any Spanish dictionaries nor in the Web. Perhaps 'llana' means plain, flat (?). Let us realize that they were mostly 'wide', if i read correctly GERMÁN DUEÑAS BERAIZ paper. Wait until some knowledged member says this is not a Spanish blade. As in my perspective this is indeed Spanish ... and forged by Sebastian Hrnandez. That cut steel hilt is in no way Spanish, i would say; but i will leave such question to Jim.

PS
Posts crossed with Jim. I take long to essay texts (in English) before submiting them

[Jim McDougall]

Fernando its just that you are remarkably prudent in your responses. With me I tend to get excited and storm off in my usual voluminous 'essays' which often end up with misplaced or misunderstood comments.
I agree with your observations on this blade looking compellingly Spanish, but the misspelled name sends my thoughts to the cunning German craftsmen.

What complicates things is that we know some Solingen swordsmiths did go to Spain to work in the 17th c. While only several names and instances are recorded (i.e. COEL) there surely must have been others, which may account for misspell.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...It seems we have been remiss in not formally welcoming Roger to the forum...

Not really (per post #2)

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... It should be noted as far as 'Spanish style', in the mid 17th century, Toledo was effectively in decline...

Is that so, Jim ? Do you mean the center or the masters ?. Sebastian Hernandez was active in the 1630's and showing his mastership; this cited by Palomares and Estruch, ... rigth ?

[RogerFox]

I would like to thank you all for all the time and knowledge you put over my post. I take it as the most warm welcome to this community.

So at this point we have:

Hilt: The only comment about it (and pretty complete) point it over London late 18th.

Blade: Different opinion between genuine Spanish + Enrnandez and Solingen.

Can i do something for you guys it may helps to get better info (no, i will not dismount the sword )

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Not really (per post #2)


Is that so, Jim ? Do you mean the center or the masters ?. Sebastian Hernandez was active in the 1630's and showing his mastership; this cited by Palomares and Estruch, ... rigth ?

Right Fernando......see what I mean? oops

[Jim McDougall]

Roger, yay! PLZ do not dismount the sword.
As noted by Fernando, this blade DOES look remarkably Spanish......so hard to say. It was not at all uncommon to have small swords mounted with rapier blades in 'transitional rapiers' which were essentially small swords with rapier blades end of 17th century (Egerton Castle, 1885).

The hilt is undoubtedly English, Matthew Boulton style as noted (Aylward, 1945).

I think we can say this is most certainly an English cut steel hilt of 1790s mounted with 17th century rapier blade of notably Spanish style and what appears a spurious use of the name SEBASTIAN HERNANDEZ.
Beyond that, not sure what more can be said.

[RogerFox]

You already say a lot, thank you guys.