Are these Bidri?

harrywagner · 14th October 2015, 11:56 PM

These are two Indian daggers that I think are vintage. They are different styles, and made at different times, but they share some common traits. E. Jaiwant Paul, in his book "Arms and Armour: Traditional Weapons of India" discusses a decoration technique named Bidri. I am wondering if that is what these two are?

Harry

harrywagner · 15th October 2015, 01:41 AM

This time with the photos. I hope!

Battara · 15th October 2015, 05:01 AM

First of all, these daggers both look like later work to me.

Secondly, I believe bidri work is a form of what is also called koftgari.

Kubur · 15th October 2015, 10:46 AM

Hi Harry,

Yes, they are very recent low Indian production. You have plenty on epray.
In the 1970ties they had big factories around Mombay, now they have some to the North too.

Bidri work is different from koftgari. What we can see here is a low quality koftgari: they apply silver decoration on cold metal. Mostly like a painting, normaly the koftgari should be stuck to etched metal.
In the bidri work, they cover the designs and parts that they want to let in silver. Normally covered with clay, then they put the piece in an oven. The non-protected parts will become black. The protected parts will be uncovered later and will stay bright shinny silver.
I hope that I'm understandable...

harrywagner · 15th October 2015, 02:18 PM

Thanks guys. I have seen some of the "vintage" work coming from India, and neither of these fit into that category. The one with the cat's head pommel has been in the posession of a Polish collector who I have bought from several times before. The other was part of an estate sale on Cape Cod. Supposedly it's previous owner bought it on a trip there in the 1930s. I believe it.

Battara, the silver work is damascene, or koftgari, if you prefer. Bidri is a technique used to blacken steel.

Kubur, you may be right about that not being Bidri, but the steel has definately been blackened in some way. The koftgari is quite good. It stands slightly proud on the both pieces, except for the band around the neck of the one with the cat's head pommel, which is not proud, but flush with the steel.

Harry

ALEX · 15th October 2015, 03:41 PM

Kubur is correct on both age and technique observations. These are recent decorative, aka tourist items.

The "blackening" in Bidri work is not related to dark/black background on coftgari. These are different techniques and methods.

Harry,
These daggers are exactly like those you referred to as "vintage work coming from India", and quality of coftgari or technique has nothing to do with it.
Do you believe they're 1930's based on previous owner's words alone or do you have at least one reputable reference to a similar item being described as such?

harrywagner · 15th October 2015, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Kubur is correct on both age and technique observations. These are recent decorative, aka tourist items.

The "blackening" in Bidri work is not related to dark/black background on coftgari. These are different techniques and methods.

Harry,
These daggers are exactly like those you referred to as "vintage work coming from India", and quality of coftgari or technique has nothing to do with it.
Do you believe they're 1930's based on previous owner's words alone or do you have at least one reputable reference to a similar item being described as such?

Hi Alex,
Yes. I am asserting that these were both made first half 20th. I make this assertion based on having examined them, and quite a few of the more modern imitations.

Harry

harrywagner · 15th October 2015, 04:16 PM

Here is what the recent Idian daggers look like. It is a completely different animal.

ALEX · 15th October 2015, 04:29 PM

Yes they are different of course, but there was reason when I mentioned: "the quality or technique has nothing to do with it". They are still of the same time period, perhaps +/- 10-20 years but that is irrelevant.

harrywagner · 15th October 2015, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Yes they are different of course, but there was reason when I mentioned: "the quality or technique has nothing to do with it". They are still of the same time period, perhaps +/- 10-20 years but that is irrelevant.

Thanks Alex. You are, of course, free to think that. I disagree, but have no interest in arguing about it.

Sajen · 15th October 2015, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harrywagner

Thanks Alex. You are, of course, free to think that. I disagree, but have no interest in arguing about it.

Hello Harrywagner,

I don't know much about Indian weapons nor I know about the technics but let me ask this question: Why you post it for discussion when you don't have an interest in arguing?

Regards,
Detlef

harrywagner · 15th October 2015, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Harrywagner,

I don't know much about Indian weapons nor I know about the technics but let me ask this question: Why you post it for discussion when you don't have an interest in arguing?

Regards,
Detlef

Hello Detlef,
If I wanted to fight I would join the military. I'm interested in civil discussion, and in the opinions of experienced collectors. That doesn't mean I will believe everything I am told. This is especially true for items I own, that I can pick up, turn over and examine with magnification.

Harry

RSWORD · 16th October 2015, 12:09 AM

Do the scabbards have a wooden core or are they hollow? If they do have a wooden core would you mind taking a picture of it.

harrywagner · 16th October 2015, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

Do the scabbards have a wooden core or are they hollow? If they do have a wooden core would you mind taking a picture of it.

They have wood cores, with a small bit of felt on top. It would be great if you can help us with this. Thanks.

Battara · 16th October 2015, 02:39 AM

Thank you folks for correcting me.

It would seem that there are perhaps two different periods for the Indian modern work.......

And I agree......let's keep this civil - thank you.

RSWORD · 16th October 2015, 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harrywagner

They have wood cores, with a small bit of felt on top. It would be great if you can help us with this. Thanks.

The reason I asked the question was to see the patina on the wood core, if there was a core, to help determine age. The wood looks fairly new. Take a smell of it. Does it smell like freshly cut wood or does it smell real musky? A blade that has been around since the 1930's that has been oiled regularly will deposit some of that oil in the wood along with dust, dirt, grime, etc. after a very long time it creates that musky smell. Old things have that smell. New things tend to have a newer smell. Disregarding the oral provenance from the auction and strictly looking at the knife in question my guess would be that it is 30-40 years old. The silver koftgari seems to be decent work and it is not as flamboyant as very recent more mass produced Indian work. If you enjoy and appreciate them don't worry too much if they are 1930's or 1970's. In another 30-40 years they will be antiques for the next generation. Imagine soldiers in the Philippines in the 1940's buying a sword from circa 1900-1910. It would have been 30-40 years old at that time. Now, collectors enjoy and cherish many pieces from that time period. Collect what you like. Take care of them and someone in the future will determine their collectibility at that time.

harrywagner · 16th October 2015, 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Thank you folks for correcting me.

It would seem that there are perhaps two different periods for the Indian modern work.......

And I agree......let's keep this civil - thank you.

Thank you. Please feel free to help us by saying what dates you think these were made. I won't be offended. This was never about how old these were to begin with. It was about their decoration technique. Somehow we have gotten side-tracked. However, now that we are here, I will say I believe these are not recent manufacture based on the blade. My two look like old Wootz. Everything I see on that auction site has what I would call 'pattern' steel.

My apologies if I have offended.

harrywagner · 16th October 2015, 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harrywagner

Thank you. Please feel free to help us by saying what dates you think these were made. I won't be offended. This was never about how old these were to begin with. It was about their decoration technique. Somehow we have gotten side-tracked. However, now that we are here, I will say I believe these are not recent manufacture based on the blade. My two look like old Wootz. Everything I see on that auction site has what I would call 'pattern' steel.

My apologies if I have offended.

Sorry, I think our posts must haven gotten crossed in the mail. I appreciate your help. Thank you.

Gavin Nugent · 16th October 2015, 07:36 AM

Harry,

Bidri work involves the carving/chiseling of surfaces as does Zar Buland.
My understanding is the Bidri applications are finished flush with the surface of the object and the Zar Buland is raised well above the surface.

Edit note, Koftgari is something again just so there is no confusion.

Indian Art in Delhi, 1903 by George Watt explains the many different varieties of each.

Gavin

ALEX · 16th October 2015, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harrywagner

Thanks Alex. You are, of course, free to think that. I disagree, but have no interest in arguing about it.

Hi Harry,
It seems your version of "civil discussion" is to hear the "opinions of experienced collectors" only if it agrees with yours. You're seeking to confirm production date, but switching to comparing quality to leverage your point. Comparing quality is fundamental mistake when determining the age. it goes beyond that, and this is my point. In this example, there is no need to look further than the shiny clean velvet at the scabbards' throat. I am not even going to comment on the blade "looking like" wootz. You need to study the books, not the auction site, and get enough practical experience to know the difference.

Gavin Nugent · 16th October 2015, 12:40 PM

Without getting too involved in the age factor, I have specifically refrained from pointing anyone to any one commercial manufacturers site, but instead have provided the Google image search which outlines the type discussed if further delving wishes to be done.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=i...X9QVb&dpr=1.75

Gavin

harrywagner · 16th October 2015, 01:43 PM

Thanks Gavin (and others). That is helpful. For the record. I am the one that asserted these were first half 20th, not the sellers. So I have no hard feeling if they are more recent, as has been suggested. My Polish friend sold me the one with the cat pommel. He dates that one to the 1990s. I honestly don't care. The age of an item is not that important to me. I am mostly interested in Islamic and Oriental bladed weapons and the basic design of many of these weapons has not changed in eons. For insurance purposes I will date the cat pommel to the 1990s and the other to the 70s.

I have to say that this entire discussion has left a sour taste in my mouth. This site is a great resource for collectors, but I will consider carefully before I post here again.

Sincerely,
Harry

Kubur · 16th October 2015, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harrywagner

I have to say that this entire discussion has left a sour taste in my mouth. This site is a great resource for collectors, but I will consider carefully before I post here again.

Sincerely,
Harry

Dear Harry,

I had the same problem in the past, with one or two objects.
Some comments were right, some were completely wrong.
It is a forum of connoisseurs, no more, but even specialists can be wrong.
Second point, why dissociate local users objects and travelers or tourists objects? Most of our objects are from the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th c. There were few tourists and travellers, not like now.
It's clear that the craftmen who did these objects were very skilled and with a deep knowledge. They probably worked for both wealthy local elite and rich travellers. Or even the objects were produced to satisfy both local and travellers. No one can say! I just know that nowadays the techniques are lost or almost and objects for tourists are of a very low quality if not made in China!! My comments can be applied to daggers as Qajar axes and other objets from the end of the 19th c. The most important is your own feeling. It's not important if these daggers are from the mid-20th c.

Kind regards,
Kubur

harrywagner · 16th October 2015, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Hi Harry,
It seems your version of "civil discussion" is to hear the "opinions of experienced collectors" only if it agrees with yours. You're seeking to confirm production date, but switching to comparing quality to leverage your point. Comparing quality is fundamental mistake when determining the age. it goes beyond that, and this is my point. In this example, there is no need to look further than the shiny clean velvet at the scabbards' throat. I am not even going to comment on the blade "looking like" wootz. You need to study the books, not the auction site, and get enough practical experience to know the difference.

Thank you Alex for reminding me why I don't join clubs, fraternities, etc. I have been on the fence about being a member of this site and your kind words have decided the question for me perfectly.

Admins - please cancel my account on this site. I am finished here. Thank you.

Sincerely,
Harry Wagner

ALEX · 16th October 2015, 06:47 PM

Harry, I am sorry you feel this way, but it is you who made a decision, not me. You're missing the point and taking it personally and this is not good way to learn.

Kubur · 16th October 2015, 07:07 PM

Alex I agree with you about litterature and books.
I dont agree with you about the term "to learn".
Harry is not a student and you are not a specialist and even if you or me were specialists. I don't like members who patronise new members. To be new members doesnt mean that they are new collectors, and even if they were, i dont think that is a problem.
Harry I don't feel that i belong to a club, i just share objects and knowledge with some very nice guys on this forum.
You shouldnt leave this forum.

Sajen · 16th October 2015, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harrywagner

Hello Detlef,
If I wanted to fight I would join the military. I'm interested in civil discussion, and in the opinions of experienced collectors. That doesn't mean I will believe everything I am told. This is especially true for items I own, that I can pick up, turn over and examine with magnification.

Harry

Hello Harry,

I think you understand me wrong. I don't want to suggest a fight but a discussion. When you are certain with your opinion show why. I don't want to attack you with my post. But when I am positive about something I try to explain why.

Best regards,
Detlef

ALEX · 16th October 2015, 08:16 PM

Kubur, I agree. It is ok to just enjoy and discuss the items, not everyone needs to learn or study them. But specific question was posted about age and quality, and this is what I commented on. Are we here to please each other and become a Facebook community with only "Like" option, or provide true and constructive feedback? I see this Forum is becoming FB-ish, so this is what "ticked" me. I apologize for being harsh, and also think Harry should not leave.

Sajen · 16th October 2015, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harrywagner

Thank you Alex for reminding me why I don't join clubs, fraternities, etc. I have been on the fence about being a member of this site and your kind words have decided the question for me perfectly.

Admins - please cancel my account on this site. I am finished here. Thank you.

Sincerely,
Harry Wagner

Dear Harry,

I really think that is the wrong way, sorry. Please don't leave this forum. So far I can judge it is Alex a member with a good knowledge about Indian weapons and he has only given his opinion about your both daggers. Show him why you disagree with his opinion.

Best regards,
Detlef

Miguel · 17th October 2015, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harrywagner

Thank you Alex for reminding me why I don't join clubs, fraternities, etc. I have been on the fence about being a member of this site and your kind words have decided the question for me perfectly.

Admins - please cancel my account on this site. I am finished here. Thank you.

Sincerely,
Harry Wagner

Hi Harry,
I have followed this thread with interest as I have a few pieces with similar decoration to yours and am amazed at how the discussion has ended. I really think that you have over reacted as there was nothing said by any of the participants, in my opinion, to provoke you into such a reaction. If it is not to late I would urge you to reconsider as I think by leaving the forum you will be the loser and for what?
Hoping that you will reconsider.
Miguel

14th October 2015, 11:56 PM	#1
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	Are these Bidri? These are two Indian daggers that I think are vintage. They are different styles, and made at different times, but they share some common traits. E. Jaiwant Paul, in his book "Arms and Armour: Traditional Weapons of India" discusses a decoration technique named Bidri. I am wondering if that is what these two are? Harry

15th October 2015, 01:41 AM	#2
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	This time with the photos. I hope! Attached Images

15th October 2015, 04:16 PM	#8
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	This was recently made Here is what the recent Idian daggers look like. It is a completely different animal. Attached Images

16th October 2015, 07:36 AM	#19
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Harry, Bidri work involves the carving/chiseling of surfaces as does Zar Buland. My understanding is the Bidri applications are finished flush with the surface of the object and the Zar Buland is raised well above the surface. Edit note, Koftgari is something again just so there is no confusion. Indian Art in Delhi, 1903 by George Watt explains the many different varieties of each. Gavin Last edited by Gavin Nugent; 16th October 2015 at 12:27 PM.

16th October 2015, 06:47 PM	#25
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Harry, I am sorry you feel this way, but it is you who made a decision, not me. You're missing the point and taking it personally and this is not good way to learn. Last edited by ALEX; 16th October 2015 at 07:03 PM.

15th October 2015, 05:01 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	First of all, these daggers both look like later work to me. Secondly, I believe bidri work is a form of what is also called koftgari.

15th October 2015, 10:46 AM	#4
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Harry, Yes, they are very recent low Indian production. You have plenty on epray. In the 1970ties they had big factories around Mombay, now they have some to the North too. Bidri work is different from koftgari. What we can see here is a low quality koftgari: they apply silver decoration on cold metal. Mostly like a painting, normaly the koftgari should be stuck to etched metal. In the bidri work, they cover the designs and parts that they want to let in silver. Normally covered with clay, then they put the piece in an oven. The non-protected parts will become black. The protected parts will be uncovered later and will stay bright shinny silver. I hope that I'm understandable...

15th October 2015, 02:18 PM	#5
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	Thanks guys. I have seen some of the "vintage" work coming from India, and neither of these fit into that category. The one with the cat's head pommel has been in the posession of a Polish collector who I have bought from several times before. The other was part of an estate sale on Cape Cod. Supposedly it's previous owner bought it on a trip there in the 1930s. I believe it. Battara, the silver work is damascene, or koftgari, if you prefer. Bidri is a technique used to blacken steel. Kubur, you may be right about that not being Bidri, but the steel has definately been blackened in some way. The koftgari is quite good. It stands slightly proud on the both pieces, except for the band around the neck of the one with the cat's head pommel, which is not proud, but flush with the steel. Harry

15th October 2015, 03:41 PM	#6
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Kubur is correct on both age and technique observations. These are recent decorative, aka tourist items. The "blackening" in Bidri work is not related to dark/black background on coftgari. These are different techniques and methods. Harry, These daggers are exactly like those you referred to as "vintage work coming from India", and quality of coftgari or technique has nothing to do with it. Do you believe they're 1930's based on previous owner's words alone or do you have at least one reputable reference to a similar item being described as such?

15th October 2015, 04:29 PM	#9
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Yes they are different of course, but there was reason when I mentioned: "the quality or technique has nothing to do with it". They are still of the same time period, perhaps +/- 10-20 years but that is irrelevant.

16th October 2015, 12:09 AM	#13
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Do the scabbards have a wooden core or are they hollow? If they do have a wooden core would you mind taking a picture of it.

16th October 2015, 02:39 AM	#15
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Thank you folks for correcting me. It would seem that there are perhaps two different periods for the Indian modern work....... And I agree......let's keep this civil - thank you.

16th October 2015, 12:40 PM	#21
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Without getting too involved in the age factor, I have specifically refrained from pointing anyone to any one commercial manufacturers site, but instead have provided the Google image search which outlines the type discussed if further delving wishes to be done. https://www.google.com.au/search?q=i...X9QVb&dpr=1.75 Gavin

16th October 2015, 01:43 PM	#22
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	Thanks Gavin (and others). That is helpful. For the record. I am the one that asserted these were first half 20th, not the sellers. So I have no hard feeling if they are more recent, as has been suggested. My Polish friend sold me the one with the cat pommel. He dates that one to the 1990s. I honestly don't care. The age of an item is not that important to me. I am mostly interested in Islamic and Oriental bladed weapons and the basic design of many of these weapons has not changed in eons. For insurance purposes I will date the cat pommel to the 1990s and the other to the 70s. I have to say that this entire discussion has left a sour taste in my mouth. This site is a great resource for collectors, but I will consider carefully before I post here again. Sincerely, Harry

16th October 2015, 07:07 PM	#26
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Alex I agree with you about litterature and books. I dont agree with you about the term "to learn". Harry is not a student and you are not a specialist and even if you or me were specialists. I don't like members who patronise new members. To be new members doesnt mean that they are new collectors, and even if they were, i dont think that is a problem. Harry I don't feel that i belong to a club, i just share objects and knowledge with some very nice guys on this forum. You shouldnt leave this forum.

16th October 2015, 08:16 PM	#28
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Kubur, I agree. It is ok to just enjoy and discuss the items, not everyone needs to learn or study them. But specific question was posted about age and quality, and this is what I commented on. Are we here to please each other and become a Facebook community with only "Like" option, or provide true and constructive feedback? I see this Forum is becoming FB-ish, so this is what "ticked" me. I apologize for being harsh, and also think Harry should not leave.