Talismanic or just randomly placed copper dots

[kino]

I noticed that this Kris has copper dots inset on the top part of the blade, the dots are on both sides of the sword.

Do you Forumites think that these were just place randomly or do they have any talismanic values. Any ideas

[Atlantia]

Interesting blade. Are they buddhists? Do the star designs represent the eightfold path?

[David]

I would say that given the other talismanic signs that there is probably similar purpose behind the copper dots.
The number 8 certainly does seem to have some significance here, but i doubt it has a Buddhist connection. However, i couldn't begin to guess at it's actual meaning. Very interesting blade.

[Queequeg]

I read once, in a story which took place in the Philippines, that warriors would drill holes into their kamplians and fill them with brass for every enemy they killed with that blade.

Truth?

[Battara]

Nice piece, especially love the talismans on the blade. Dots - yes purposeful, but meaning - ?

Holes for slain - not enough evidence one way or the other.

Also looks Maguindanao, and I love the unusual baka-baka clamp of silver.

[kai]

Hello Albert,

Congrats, that's a very nice piece again!

Do you Forumites think that these were just place randomly or do they have any talismanic values.

I believe that hardly anything in any SE Asian culture can be legimately called "random" in a western sense: Just about anything has a meaning to begin with (or, more rarely, gets one assigned/changed by its owner) - with weapons usually in the realm of what we refer to as talismanic. The only exception I can think of may be repairs (i.e. dots added later to repair a hairline crack and even then any non-iron metal would also get talimanic properties assigned to it) - but your dots seem to be spaced too regularly to begin with. Also, any pure repair of a sandwich construction would only need to be done to the layer actually affected - not going through all 3 layers!

Regards,
Kai

[Battara]

I agree with Kai that the dots are talismanic. I wonder what the meaning could be? I've seen them before on kris. My own Maguindanao kris whose avatar I use has 4 silver dots, but have no idea why other than talismanic. Must be something in adat or Muslim folklore......

[VVV]

Interesting piece, congratulations!
I also agree that they must have some meaning, even if we probably never really will know what.
Here are two suggestions that maybe(!) could be the case:

- Magic; to counter an enemy who has powers not to be hurt by steel by adding another metal in the blade.
- Symbolic leverage; by including 4 higher powers in the blade they will assist the owner in the fight. I don't know which 4 powers but the
most common ones are: the 4 archangels, the 4 rulers of the corners of the earth, the 4 elements, the 4 friends of the Prophet etc.

Just ideas, but based on ethnographic information collected in the same cultural area.

Michael

[Atlantia]

Lovely sword by the way Kino,
Are there definately only the four dots? No others further down the blade?

[kino]

A lot of good theories. Thanks.

Atlantia, No not Buddhist, the Moro's are Muslims. There are only four copper dots on each side of the blade.

Battara- Upon closer inspection the clamp seems to be made of copper that was covered in silver. I have seen suassa over silver, this is my first encounter with silver over copper.

Kai- No hairline crack inline with the dots. Although there is evidence of a repair to the tang.

VVV- I can't invalidate your theory, anything is possible.

Does the dots have anything to do with the tang repair? Cato said that the Jin is released if the blade is separated from the ganya. I wonder if the dots were placed on the blade prior to doing the repair, to prevent the Jin from escaping.
Which came first the tang repair or the copper dots???

[Battara]

Good point Kino. Did not see the repair. Also, I see the dots closer now and they are in the form of an okir moon according to Saber and Orellana (circles symbolize the moon). Perhaps the power of 4 moons rising?

Maguindanao and Maranao piece often have a base metal covered by a top layer of a precious metal. I would say Maguindanao in this case. Rare to have this on a baka-baka and it being filigree at that.

[Bill]

Very cool sword. How many dots total, can you point them all out? I'll throw in my 2 cents of speculation.
The fellow that owned this was very superstitious, so some of the meaning may specific, as to him as an individual. Perhaps he was of some religious status.
Seeing as the first dot is on the gangya & is as close as you can get to holding the sword, he may have felt he was sending his inner power down into the blade. The first 4 dots certainly look as a continuation of his arm right to the center of the blade.
That "repair" is interesting too. I have a blade that was clearly damaged & the tang was replaced. But I have also seen a high % of talismanic blades with what appears to be tang replacements.
Could this blade be made this way deliberately? Some of the work looks like it was sawed/filed in a straight line/box; while some (like yours) are rather uneven (made in the forging process?). The tang being made of some metal of spiritual value (old sword, etc) & being added to the new sword; an old Jin, you might say?

[Tim Simmons]

Again we see this so called hilt repair. I am not out to start a fight but lets look at this. We see this sort of thing so often. The blades are not damaged. What sort of blow would break such renouned weapons at the hilt? leaving the blade in normal condition. I have to ask again are these swords really that crap or is this some local form of construction? To me it is just getting a little silly seeing this again and again with the same repair idea. We do not see this with other weapon world wide?

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Bill

Very cool sword. How many dots total, can you point them all out? I'll throw in my 2 cents of speculation.
The fellow that owned this was very superstitious, so some of the meaning may specific, as to him as an individual. Perhaps he was of some religious status.
Seeing as the first dot is on the gangya & is as close as you can get to holding the sword, he may have felt he was sending his inner power down into the blade. The first 4 dots certainly look as a continuation of his arm right to the center of the blade.
That "repair" is interesting too. I have a blade that was clearly damaged & the tang was replaced. But I have also seen a high % of talismanic blades with what appears to be tang replacements.
Could this blade be made this way deliberately? Some of the work looks like it was sawed/filed in a straight line/box; while some (like yours) are rather uneven (made in the forging process?). The tang being made of some metal of spiritual value (old sword, etc) & being added to the new sword; an old Jin, you might say?

Bill has an interesting point ; incorporating pieces of known powerful kerises into a new keris is not unknown in Jawa .
Perhaps this was so with the Moro peoples ..

People have said that the power of a keris resides in the tang, or pesi; so you might use the pesi of the powerful kris to enhance the power of the new sword .
Also, if this is the case why not just use the powerful metal in the forging process rather than go through the difficult process of adding it later resulting in weakening the overall structure of the sword ?

Having said that; I still think that these could also be legitimate repairs to weapons destroyed by government patrols . What would it take to bust off the tang ?
Hammer and a cold chisel .
You can't use a sword without a handle and you can't carry off all the confiscated stuff on patrol .

Bill, I hope I didn't foul up your post.
I hit edit instead of quote .

[Tim Simmons]

Breaking rebel or other named fighters weapons like this would seem unique to the PI. I cannot say I have seen such actions by British empire captured insurgents weapons. Barongs do not seem to be damaged? or other sword like weapons.

[VVV]

Interesting theory about adding old metal in the new kris.
I forgot before to mention that the motifs below the copper dots - the cross, the eight-petalled rosette and the double-cross - are all traditional "Folk Islam"- talismanic symbols (based on the number 5 [including the center]) to divert the effect of an opponent's evil eye. The principle is, similar to the old idea about cross-roads, to "disperse the evil energy issuing from the eye to all the quarters of the wind in order to prevent it from injuring the person or object looked at." [Westermarck, Pagan Survivals in Mohammedan Civilisation].

Michael

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Breaking rebel or other named fighters weapons like this would seem unique to the PI. I cannot say I have seen such actions by British empire captured insurgents weapons. Barongs do not seem to be damaged? or other sword like weapons.

Much of the fighting was done by small groups of Constabulary men on foot patrols that were often quite long .
What to do with the weapons ?

Perhaps there was a psychological motive too; destroying a mans kris, his pride perhaps ?
So .
The kris is fitted with a new tang along with some talismanic symbols to protect its new integrity .

[Tim Simmons]

Rick, the last thing I want is to discuss antique counter insurgency warfare. Saying that and you mentioned foot patrols first, what about the Naga campains. On foot and largely ignored at the time. Very brave people. All this does not help the with phenomenon we see with the hilt repiar syndrome.

[Rick]

Aren't we trying to figure out why it was done ?

I'm not particularly interested in discussing said subject either .
Most of these krisses came out of The Morolands during that time in history .

I am not familiar with the Naga Campaigns Tim .

[kai]

Hello Tim,

Thanks for thinking outside the box! I have no stake in this discussion but for the fun of it let me play the devil's advocate...

Again we see this so called hilt repair. I am not out to start a fight but lets look at this. We see this sort of thing so often. The blades are not damaged. What sort of blow would break such renouned weapons at the hilt? leaving the blade in normal condition. I have to ask again are these swords really that crap or is this some local form of construction? To me it is just getting a little silly seeing this again and again with the same repair idea. We do not see this with other weapon world wide?

Well, this type of repair/whatever is only possible as long as you have a separate gangya - if one needs to fix a different blade/tang construction, a different technique would be called for (if any). The smaller Indonesian/Malay keris isn't subjected to the same mechanical stress during fighting and several genuine tang repair methods are traditionally employed for these blades (Alan discussed options in a thread at the Keris Warung Kopi). This leaves the Moro kris (and Malay keris sundang) as the only blade for which this method would be sensible. Doesn't prove either explanation but explains why you don't see it with other swords, I guess.

While we've seen quite a few kris posted with such a repair/feature, this is still a minority (just guessing: less than 5% of surviving pre-20th century kris). Lateral stress does happen and isn't good for any sword. A bend sword can still be used and straightened out later; only a survivor will be able to comission a tang repair though. Of course, blades with fatal damages (major cracks, etc.) won't usually end up getting repaired.

Often the repair/feature has been done with great skill - sometimes so good that people whose knowledge I respect a lot tend to think that it must be an original feature rather than a repair. However, there are sure examples of great repair jobs on blades from several cultures which attest to the skill of experienced bladesmiths of old. For example, Bill has a Jian where pitting has been meticulously repaired by tiny rectangular (mild?) steel inlays and the antique repair job was more expensive than the fine blade! Obviously, other factors contribute to owners' decisions for having a blade repaired.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Rick,

People have said that the power of a keris resides in the tang, or pesi; so you might use the pesi of the powerful kris to enhance the power of the new sword .

The only info on Moro kris regarding this topic (by Cato) suggests that the base area (especially the "arrow" motif if fullers are present) is the "home" of the jin. If I remember correctly, Alan related that the pesi of keris Jawa isn't usually regarded as having special power either.

Also, if this is the case why not just use the powerful metal in the forging process rather than go through the difficult process of adding it later resulting in weakening the overall structure of the sword ?

Yes, recycling the metal seems to have been traditionally used in Indonesia and would certainly make sense from a structural point of view...

Having said that; I still think that these could also be legitimate repairs to weapons destroyed by government patrols .

I wouldn't emphasize the colonial war by the US too much since I guess that many repairs were already done well before the US involvement: Many repairs are of a quality which I'd estimate to have vanished before the 20th century, possibly already during the Span.-Am. war.

Regards,
Kai

[Rick]

Hello Kai,
Thanks for correcting my assumptions .
I really don't want to emphasise any war in particular .

The culture has been in conflict with outsiders since the days of Magellan .

What is your opinion on this tang phenomenon ?
Esoteric or functional ?

[kai]

Hello Albert,

Kai- No hairline crack inline with the dots.

Yeah, I wasn't suggesting it in this case - just mentioning possibilities in general.

Does the dots have anything to do with the tang repair? Cato said that the Jin is released if the blade is separated from the ganya. I wonder if the dots were placed on the blade prior to doing the repair, to prevent the Jin from escaping.

With one of the dots on the gangya, I don't see how this might have been supposed to work. A master bladesmith should be able to (re-)apply a Jin when finishing the repair work; I'd guess that there were rituals to house the Jin elsewhere while working on a blade, too.

Which came first the tang repair or the copper dots???

We'll probably never know. However, I'd guess the dots were part of the original talismanic design.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Rick,

What is your opinion on this tang phenomenon ?
Esoteric or functional ?

I'm leaning towards these being tang repairs but keep an open mind.

It would be great to collect more data on these constructions. I'd ask anybody removing the hilt of a kris to take close-ups and measurements of the tang and also pay special attention to modifications done to the gangya. Thanks in advance!

Regards,
Kai

[kino]

The other side.

[Tim Simmons]

Great fun. I know weapons do get repaired. I have done so myself quite recently . No seriously I still feel very unsure about so many repairs in the same spot on the same sword form from one location, with other weapons from the same location, where said to be purposely damaged [or not] are undamaged. They are not rubbish weapons we know that. We could all post pictures of this feature?
It would also mean thousands of fallen fighters weapons left broken on the ground simply to be picked up again, then repiared just to be captured again this time not damaged for a second time. Some how we might make sense of it all.

[Spunjer]

very interesting thread...

Again we see this so called hilt repair.

... or perhaps just a certain blacksmith's method of strengthening the tang? what i do find interesting on kino's kris are the decoration found on the asang-asang. somewhat similar to the one i got:

sorry about the yellow tint. bad lighting, lol







and another similar aspect is the so called hilt repair





tim does bring up some interesting points.

[Bill]

another thought on this. Dead man's sword. Captured or a fallen fellow warrior, the Jen would have failed the previous owner if killed in battle. Lack of metal/time & no lack of enemies could necessitate re-use.
I worked in a craft job that had a occasional death. The deceased's tools were known as "dead mans tools" & always thrown in the dumpster. I can only imagine what may have been thought about a sword with a Jen that failed. Perhaps this is why we see the talismanic markings many of the "tang repaired" blades. It may not be tang related at all but tossing out a bad Jen.

[Tim Simmons]

Strange as it seems that sounds better to me. I feel there must be some cultural reason for this construction. The more you think about the many thousands of these examples being broken in the field then repiared and recaptured, it sarts to fall apart. To me anyway.

[kai]

Hello Bill,

I can only imagine what may have been thought about a sword with a Jen that failed. Perhaps this is why we see the talismanic markings many of the "tang repaired" blades. It may not be tang related at all but tossing out a bad Jen.

The bad luck stigma is certainly true (from the original and neighboring cultures point of view). The obvious thing to do might be performing rituals, removing the gangya, seeking help by special people to imbue more successful powers, maybe even adding some talismanic features (if your status allows you to do so!). However, AFAIK there's no verified notion (from within Moro culture as well as other SEA cultures) that the tang is anything special which needs to be replaced...

Regards,
Kai