S.E. Asian spear

LJ · 19th September 2014, 02:20 PM

I would guess this is from Philippines or Indonesia, but would any of the Southeast Asia specialists care to offer an opinion? I've noticed some recent posts discussing ferrule forms: this one has a fairly plain copper ferrule below the head, also a thin-walled copper ferrule on the butt end. The shaft struck me as nicely made, worked into a regular 8-sided form. I couldn't see any old inscriptions on the shaft. Overall length of the spear is 169 cm.

CharlesS · 19th September 2014, 02:35 PM

Certainly an interesting piece, and a very attractive one.

The octagonal haft reminds me of a Moro piece I recently posted here. The rest, however, does not seem Moro at all.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=moro+spear

Puzzling....looking forward to seeing what info you get back.

LJ · 19th September 2014, 03:32 PM

Yes, the octagonal shafts are very similar. I wonder if the copper wrapping on the butt of this one [which is looks the poorest quality work on the spear] has been put on by an owner when an original horn butt broke off ?

Sajen · 19th September 2014, 05:47 PM

This spear is a riddle for me. Don't think that it is Moro and don't have seen something similar from Indonesia. I would lean towards somewhere from the Philippines.

I think the brass ferrule is original to the spear.
Very interesting spear, good catch!

Regards,
Detlef

Maurice · 19th September 2014, 11:56 PM

It could be an Achenese lance.
Is the octagonal shaft round at the upper side near the blade and octagonal near the butt?
Or is it all octagonal from end to tip?

Maurice

LJ · 20th September 2014, 07:02 PM

Many thanks for the suggestion.

The shaft is octagonal at least as far as the ferrule (but, of course, I can't say whether it continues to be octagonal under the ferrule without taking the spear apart). The cylindrical ferrule on this spear contrasts with the octagonal ferrule on the spear posted by CharlesS.

The octagonal section continues to the butt. However, if we assume that the thin copper wrapping on the butt is a later repair, then it is also possible that the shaft might have had its original end cut off.

I don't know if this is important, but it did strike that (compared with the FEW other S.E. Asia spears I've seen) that the head seems to have an unusually long shaft.

Rich · 20th September 2014, 08:15 PM

While I don't think it is Japanese, I don't think it is a spear (i.e., not for throwing); more likely a pike or lance (yari in Japanese).
Rich S

KuKulzA28 · 20th September 2014, 09:30 PM

Just want to ask, for semantic sake
In english
Spears are long pointed sticks for fighting, primary goal is the pierce... but there's many kinds

I thought the ones for throwing are called javelins, usually tapered so the weight is at the head
The ones for cavalry charges are lances
the really long ones for open battle are pikes (10-20' long)... these are used by infantry, almost always in dense formation and always tapered for practicality
and well, the ones good for individual combat, single or two-handed, are just.. spears. Usually 5-8' long. These are usually but not always tapered so the butt end has more wood

I thought Yari was just a Japanese word for any spear
same with Qiang in Mandarin...

Rich · 20th September 2014, 10:39 PM

Yari are sometimes called spears, but are not generally made to be
thrown.

http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/polearms.htm

Rich S

LJ · 20th September 2014, 11:09 PM

I think once we start talking about names, this opens a whole can of worms. Perhaps somebody might want to start a separate post on this !

I think the European Armoury guys might be happier if long thin weapons were generically called 'Pole Arms', but I've always been quite happy to use 'spear' for long pointy things that were either thrown or held. In fact, I suspect that in many cases there might have been no clear distinction ... one spear might have been both thrown AND/OR held at different times depending on circumstances. Assegais, with 'throwing' and 'stabbing' varieties being a notable exception.

Lances ... yes, I think the name is usually restricted to things used when riding horses.

All of which is interesting, but gets away from this post a bit. Yes, I'm fairly certain it isn't a Japanese Yari. Following Maurice's lead I've looked at the Volkenkunde Museum (Leiden) website and although their images are low-resolution you can see there are several Pole Arms from Aceh in their collection that have facetted shafts. They are listed on the database as lances, rather than spears, which begs the question ... were they used on horseback ?

Rich · 21st September 2014, 01:43 AM

Agreed, let's forget semantics and get on with trying to figure out what this is.
Rich S

LJ · 21st September 2014, 07:31 PM

But I can't resist adding my computer's semantics when I tried searching for "spear aceh" and it suggested "spear ache". Which is, I guess, what you get when prodded with one !

19th September 2014, 02:20 PM	#1
LJ Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 93	S.E. Asian spear I would guess this is from Philippines or Indonesia, but would any of the Southeast Asia specialists care to offer an opinion? I've noticed some recent posts discussing ferrule forms: this one has a fairly plain copper ferrule below the head, also a thin-walled copper ferrule on the butt end. The shaft struck me as nicely made, worked into a regular 8-sided form. I couldn't see any old inscriptions on the shaft. Overall length of the spear is 169 cm. Attached Images

19th September 2014, 02:35 PM	#2
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Certainly an interesting piece, and a very attractive one. The octagonal haft reminds me of a Moro piece I recently posted here. The rest, however, does not seem Moro at all. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=moro+spear Puzzling....looking forward to seeing what info you get back.

19th September 2014, 03:32 PM	#3
LJ Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 93	Yes, the octagonal shafts are very similar. I wonder if the copper wrapping on the butt of this one [which is looks the poorest quality work on the spear] has been put on by an owner when an original horn butt broke off ?

19th September 2014, 05:47 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,786	This spear is a riddle for me. Don't think that it is Moro and don't have seen something similar from Indonesia. I would lean towards somewhere from the Philippines. I think the brass ferrule is original to the spear. Very interesting spear, good catch! Regards, Detlef

19th September 2014, 11:56 PM	#5
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,347	It could be an Achenese lance. Is the octagonal shaft round at the upper side near the blade and octagonal near the butt? Or is it all octagonal from end to tip? Maurice

20th September 2014, 07:02 PM	#6
LJ Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 93	Many thanks for the suggestion. The shaft is octagonal at least as far as the ferrule (but, of course, I can't say whether it continues to be octagonal under the ferrule without taking the spear apart). The cylindrical ferrule on this spear contrasts with the octagonal ferrule on the spear posted by CharlesS. The octagonal section continues to the butt. However, if we assume that the thin copper wrapping on the butt is a later repair, then it is also possible that the shaft might have had its original end cut off. I don't know if this is important, but it did strike that (compared with the FEW other S.E. Asia spears I've seen) that the head seems to have an unusually long shaft.

20th September 2014, 08:15 PM	#7
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	While I don't think it is Japanese, I don't think it is a spear (i.e., not for throwing); more likely a pike or lance (yari in Japanese). Rich S

20th September 2014, 09:30 PM	#8
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Just want to ask, for semantic sake In english Spears are long pointed sticks for fighting, primary goal is the pierce... but there's many kinds I thought the ones for throwing are called javelins, usually tapered so the weight is at the head The ones for cavalry charges are lances the really long ones for open battle are pikes (10-20' long)... these are used by infantry, almost always in dense formation and always tapered for practicality and well, the ones good for individual combat, single or two-handed, are just.. spears. Usually 5-8' long. These are usually but not always tapered so the butt end has more wood I thought Yari was just a Japanese word for any spear same with Qiang in Mandarin...

20th September 2014, 10:39 PM	#9
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	Yari are sometimes called spears, but are not generally made to be thrown. http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/polearms.htm Rich S

20th September 2014, 11:09 PM	#10
LJ Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 93	I think once we start talking about names, this opens a whole can of worms. Perhaps somebody might want to start a separate post on this ! I think the European Armoury guys might be happier if long thin weapons were generically called 'Pole Arms', but I've always been quite happy to use 'spear' for long pointy things that were either thrown or held. In fact, I suspect that in many cases there might have been no clear distinction ... one spear might have been both thrown AND/OR held at different times depending on circumstances. Assegais, with 'throwing' and 'stabbing' varieties being a notable exception. Lances ... yes, I think the name is usually restricted to things used when riding horses. All of which is interesting, but gets away from this post a bit. Yes, I'm fairly certain it isn't a Japanese Yari. Following Maurice's lead I've looked at the Volkenkunde Museum (Leiden) website and although their images are low-resolution you can see there are several Pole Arms from Aceh in their collection that have facetted shafts. They are listed on the database as lances, rather than spears, which begs the question ... were they used on horseback ?

21st September 2014, 01:43 AM	#11
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	Agreed, let's forget semantics and get on with trying to figure out what this is. Rich S

21st September 2014, 07:31 PM	#12
LJ Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 93	But I can't resist adding my computer's semantics when I tried searching for "spear aceh" and it suggested "spear ache". Which is, I guess, what you get when prodded with one !