Visayan Knife

Robert · 2nd June 2016, 04:01 PM

I thought that I would post a few photos of a rather different Visayans knife that I have. It has a total length of 11 inches. a laminated blade 7-1/8 inches in length, 1-1/2 inches at its widest point and the spine is 1/4 inch thick at the hilt. The hilt is carved buffalo horn in the form of possibly a demon or a lion? I will have to make a rawhide throat piece and brass plate (now missing) that were originally held by the two copper nails that are still in their original positions on the front of the scabbard. I would very much like to hear your thoughts on this piece, especially on what this style of knife might have been called, its age and what the hilt carving might represent.

Best,
Robert

Sajen · 2nd June 2016, 07:25 PM

Hello Robert,

a nice and interesting little knife and it will have for sure a local name which I don't know. Hope that someone else will be able to tell more about it as I am able to do. I would call the pommel figure Anito and not Bakunawa, see here, post 4: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=bakunawa
I think that it is a village made personal utility/fighting knife. Much to less is known special about the small Visayan knives.

Best regards,
Detlef

Robert · 3rd June 2016, 03:02 AM

Hello Detlef,
Thank you for your interest and observations on this unusual piece as well as the the link that you have provided to the very informative posting by Bangkaya. After reading what he had to say I must agree this knife would have what he has described as a figural anito head pommel. At least if the same terminology covers the hilts used on knives as well as sword hilts. Like you I am still hoping that someone here on the forum will be able to supply a local name or term for this particular style of knife.

Best,
Robert

Battara · 3rd June 2016, 03:48 AM

Interesting piece. The blade sort of looks plamenko-ish.

Wish I could be of more help. I do agree that it does not look like a Bakunawa head, so an anito or an engkanto head could be right.

Spunjer · 3rd June 2016, 10:58 PM

it is a plamenko

Sajen · 3rd June 2016, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

it is a plamenko

Hello Ron,

isn't the blade form not very unusual for a plamenko, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=plamenko

Best regards,
Detlef

Spunjer · 4th June 2016, 01:48 AM

Detlef, it 's a variation. just like the term binangon, which encompasses those swords produced in iloilo..

Robert · 4th June 2016, 02:11 AM

Thought the scabbard is very similar to those of most plamenko that I have seen the blades overall shape itself is quite different. It is double beveled like the blade of a plamenko, but being only slightly over 7 inches in length it is quite thick. In fact it is almost twice as thick as all the other plamenko that I have seen with blades of similar length. Then we have the hilt, though I have seen two other examples with figural hilts (neither in this style)their blades were of the same style as those of all other plamenko I have seen. The only other term I have heard used for these knives was "kutsilyo"which as explained to me by Bangkaya being the Filipino-bastardized term for the Spanish word "cuchillo" or knife. I almost forgot, I have never seen a plamenko with a guard either. Here is a photo of one of my plamenko and the knife above for easier comparison.

Best,
Robert

Spunjer · 4th June 2016, 02:49 AM

the term kutsilyo is actually a generic term that could be anything from a butter knife to butcher knife.

Robert · 4th June 2016, 07:21 AM

Spunjer, thank you very much for your help with this and while this certainly is no butter knife

if the term plamenko encompasses this style of knife as well as the other more often seen style I will be quite happy to call it by that name. Do you think that you might possibly be able to pinpoint what group this knife originated from as well as an idea of age? I think what threw me the most was that this knife has a guard which is something that I have never seen on any knife being referred to as a plamenko before.

Best,
Robert

Spunjer · 4th June 2016, 07:22 PM

Robert, I wish there was a cut and dry way to explain the nomenclature of these pieces. again, not unlike the term binangon, these pieces are pretty much grouped based on their general appearance and usage. I, for one had quit distinguishing the difference between a binangon and tinegre based on the blade profile, for the simple fact that, growing up in Iloilo, not once have I heard anyone ever used the term tinegre, even in the farmlands where it's very common to see your local farmers carrying these pieces wherever they go; be it at the paddies, or the marketplace. It's always referred to as binangon, regardless of the blade profile.
so, going back to this piece that you have, I would apply the same concept. as far as having a guard, it would be just like the binangons; some have guards, and some don't. notice though, that the older binangons have carabao horn guards, or wooden guards. only later did you see some that have thin metal guards. I'm not sure if this would apply with this particular piece that you have.
as far as specific groupings, I'm sorry I can'y help you on that.

Ian · 4th June 2016, 09:12 PM

Ron:

Would plamenko simply mean "small knife" in Iloilo? Just as binangon seems to refer to a "big knife" serving the function of a machete or short sword.

Ian

Spunjer · 5th June 2016, 02:56 AM

not all small knives are called plamenko; just a particular profile. plamenkos has a bad reputation, as these are the go to knives of the baddies. other ilonggo short knives are the lanseta and the kortapluma. incidentally, in Cebu, their version of what they call palmenko, or plaminko, has more of a bowie knife profile.
you are right about the binangon; in that basically a larger, machete type or short sword

2nd June 2016, 04:01 PM	#1
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Visayan Knife I thought that I would post a few photos of a rather different Visayans knife that I have. It has a total length of 11 inches. a laminated blade 7-1/8 inches in length, 1-1/2 inches at its widest point and the spine is 1/4 inch thick at the hilt. The hilt is carved buffalo horn in the form of possibly a demon or a lion? I will have to make a rawhide throat piece and brass plate (now missing) that were originally held by the two copper nails that are still in their original positions on the front of the scabbard. I would very much like to hear your thoughts on this piece, especially on what this style of knife might have been called, its age and what the hilt carving might represent. Best, Robert Attached Images

4th June 2016, 02:11 AM	#8
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Thought the scabbard is very similar to those of most plamenko that I have seen the blades overall shape itself is quite different. It is double beveled like the blade of a plamenko, but being only slightly over 7 inches in length it is quite thick. In fact it is almost twice as thick as all the other plamenko that I have seen with blades of similar length. Then we have the hilt, though I have seen two other examples with figural hilts (neither in this style)their blades were of the same style as those of all other plamenko I have seen. The only other term I have heard used for these knives was "kutsilyo"which as explained to me by Bangkaya being the Filipino-bastardized term for the Spanish word "cuchillo" or knife. I almost forgot, I have never seen a plamenko with a guard either. Here is a photo of one of my plamenko and the knife above for easier comparison. Best, Robert Attached Images Last edited by Robert; 4th June 2016 at 03:04 AM.

2nd June 2016, 07:25 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,766	Hello Robert, a nice and interesting little knife and it will have for sure a local name which I don't know. Hope that someone else will be able to tell more about it as I am able to do. I would call the pommel figure Anito and not Bakunawa, see here, post 4: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=bakunawa I think that it is a village made personal utility/fighting knife. Much to less is known special about the small Visayan knives. Best regards, Detlef

3rd June 2016, 03:02 AM	#3
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Detlef, Thank you for your interest and observations on this unusual piece as well as the the link that you have provided to the very informative posting by Bangkaya. After reading what he had to say I must agree this knife would have what he has described as a figural anito head pommel. At least if the same terminology covers the hilts used on knives as well as sword hilts. Like you I am still hoping that someone here on the forum will be able to supply a local name or term for this particular style of knife. Best, Robert

3rd June 2016, 03:48 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Interesting piece. The blade sort of looks plamenko-ish. Wish I could be of more help. I do agree that it does not look like a Bakunawa head, so an anito or an engkanto head could be right.

3rd June 2016, 10:58 PM	#5
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	it is a plamenko

4th June 2016, 01:48 AM	#7
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	Detlef, it 's a variation. just like the term binangon, which encompasses those swords produced in iloilo..

4th June 2016, 02:49 AM	#9
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	the term kutsilyo is actually a generic term that could be anything from a butter knife to butcher knife.

4th June 2016, 07:21 AM	#10
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Spunjer, thank you very much for your help with this and while this certainly is no butter knife if the term plamenko encompasses this style of knife as well as the other more often seen style I will be quite happy to call it by that name. Do you think that you might possibly be able to pinpoint what group this knife originated from as well as an idea of age? I think what threw me the most was that this knife has a guard which is something that I have never seen on any knife being referred to as a plamenko before. Best, Robert

4th June 2016, 07:22 PM	#11
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	Robert, I wish there was a cut and dry way to explain the nomenclature of these pieces. again, not unlike the term binangon, these pieces are pretty much grouped based on their general appearance and usage. I, for one had quit distinguishing the difference between a binangon and tinegre based on the blade profile, for the simple fact that, growing up in Iloilo, not once have I heard anyone ever used the term tinegre, even in the farmlands where it's very common to see your local farmers carrying these pieces wherever they go; be it at the paddies, or the marketplace. It's always referred to as binangon, regardless of the blade profile. so, going back to this piece that you have, I would apply the same concept. as far as having a guard, it would be just like the binangons; some have guards, and some don't. notice though, that the older binangons have carabao horn guards, or wooden guards. only later did you see some that have thin metal guards. I'm not sure if this would apply with this particular piece that you have. as far as specific groupings, I'm sorry I can'y help you on that.

4th June 2016, 09:12 PM	#12
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Ron: Would plamenko simply mean "small knife" in Iloilo? Just as binangon seems to refer to a "big knife" serving the function of a machete or short sword. Ian

5th June 2016, 02:56 AM	#13
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	not all small knives are called plamenko; just a particular profile. plamenkos has a bad reputation, as these are the go to knives of the baddies. other ilonggo short knives are the lanseta and the kortapluma. incidentally, in Cebu, their version of what they call palmenko, or plaminko, has more of a bowie knife profile. you are right about the binangon; in that basically a larger, machete type or short sword