Blades and horseshoes??!!

[wolviex]

Dear Friends!

Some of you have a real great mettalurgical and mettalography knowledge so I hope you'll coment this thread.

I just have read an excerpt of new "Guide for collectors" just printed in Poland, with chapter on weapons written by one famous person, whose name I would like to keep in secret for a while (I have my reasons, sorry).

In section devoted to Polish sabres the Author wrote something like this (my translation):

"Hussars sabre (...) has excellent blade of average curvature, with fullers and often with devotion inscriptions like IEZVS MARIA IOZEF. As a material used for this blades were often horseshoes, which were forged in "natural way" during the horse run".

This is new to me!

Have you heard of using horseshoe for a blade.
and what about "natural forging" on the horses hoof?

Below hussars sabre blade with inscription IEZVS MARIA IOZEF

Regards!

[S.Al-Anizi]

Interesting information, I never heard a horseshoe for a sword, wouldnt it be too soft? Lets wait and see what Jim has to say about this

[FenrisWolf]

Originally Posted by S.Al-Anizi

Interesting information, I never heard a horseshoe for a sword, wouldnt it be too soft? Lets wait and see what Jim has to say about this

That was my first reaction. Horseshoes are soft iron, they're made that way on purpose. It's one of the reasons circus strongmen could do the old stunt of bending and straightening them out. As for the idea that the horseshoes themselves get stronger from being on the horses' hooves, that makes little or no sense. The only way to strengthen the metal is in the forging process, so unless the horses are running around with red-hot shoes, I don't see how that could work.

Now, I suppose there could be some sort of parable or fable about old horseshoes being added to the steel in a sort of sympathetic magic, but that's what it sounds like, and old wive's tale. Perhaps a reversal of the old "beat your swords into plowhares" parable, "beat your horsehoes into blades".

Fenris

[Paul Digard]

Originally Posted by FenrisWolf

The only way to strengthen the metal is in the forging process, so unless the horses are running around with red-hot shoes, I don't see how that could work.

I'm on shaky ground here (the last time I studied metallurgy was 15 years ago and undergraduate classes were even further back!) but at least some metals will work harden when cold. Silver and copper do for sure and I'm 99% sure it applies to ferrous metals too. Think of how you can snap a metal wire by bending and straightening it repeatedly. It's to do with imperfections in the crystalline packing migrating when the metal is deformed - the metal gets more resistant to deformation but also more brittle.

Having said that, I fully agree that the horseshoes to swords thing sounds apocryphal!

Paul

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Michal,

Yes old horseshoes, nails and used iron pieces were mixed with other kinds of iron, when forging blades. I don’t remember where I read it; it could be in Persian Steel by James Allan and Brian Gilmour. But i have never heard about 'natural forging'.

Jens

[HUSAR]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Hi Michal,

Yes old horseshoes, nails and used iron pieces were mixed with other kinds of iron, when forging blades. I don’t remember where I read it; it could be in Persian Steel by James Allan and Brian Gilmour. But i have never heard about 'natural forging'.

Jens

HI Michal
I agree with Jens, I also read somewhere that many different types of iron (including horseshoes) was used in swords production , I do not really believe that horse could forge a horseshoe to hussar blade quality but on the other hand... not all swords are made of the the hard steel while some have though core coated with softer iron....
Best
Damian

[wolviex]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Hi Michal,

Yes old horseshoes, nails and used iron pieces were mixed with other kinds of iron, when forging blades. I don’t remember where I read it; it could be in Persian Steel by James Allan and Brian Gilmour. But i have never heard about 'natural forging'.

Jens

Dear Jens!
Well, I'm not surprise at all, it is obvious of using different iron objects and reforge them into different piece.
But the statement written in the book sounds like they used especially and only horseshoes for hussars sabres blades - what imo sounds like some kind of misunderstanding.
Anyway I'm waiting for other voices too. Thank you all for your opinions!

[Pukka Bundook]

Any pounding and compacting of the iron shoe produced by the horse, would be compltely lost anyway, in the forging process.

You hear the same thing, re. stub-iron twist gun barrels, (barrels made from horseshoe nail stubs)...........The pounding makes a purer product therefore a higher quality barrel.
as above, lost in forging process,..... but a good source for nice pure iron!

[fernando]

Horse shoes for swords, certainly not a myth.
One of the most famous resources for gun barrels in ( at least ) the 18th century, was the forging of horse shoes. Not that they forged while being used, but certainly in later treatment.
The experts can expand about this.It is written in many works.
fernando

[Jeff D]

Hi Michal,

I have read somewhere that repeatedly working the iron will make it harder that is why horseshoes and nails where often used in many cultures. I will try to find the references tonight when i have time.
I have no first hand knowledge about making knives/swords but I have observed that the second half of a horseshoe wears much slower than the first.

Hope this helps.
Jeff

[Pukka Bundook]

Hi Fernando,
I wasn't saying the use of horseshoes or nails was a myth, just that any wonderful properties added by the horse pounding the iron would be lost in the forging.
William Fullard, the best barrel-maker in London in early 19th Century used horseshoe nail stubs almost exclsively. ( poor folks made a poor living by gathering them along the great london road!)
I'm sure swordsmiths would compete for this source of pure (at that time) iron!
Best wishes,
Richard.

[katana]

Could it be that a sword forged with the inclusion of horse-shoes may be more talismatic than functional. Similar to the use of 'meteorite' iron in SEA swords / knives.
The 'soft' iron used for horseshoes was a 'necessity' so that the shoes could 'wear in' to the natural 'gait' of the horse. The low carbon iron would provide a 'forgiving' spine or core to a sword or would be a useful 'addition' to a 'pattern welded' blade. But an entire blade forged from iron with little or no carbon would not produce a good cutting edge.....essential for a Sabre.

Wolviex, please, what is the translation of the inscription IEZVS MARIA IOZEF?

Here is a link about the beliefs of many cultures with regards to iron and horseshoes.


http://www.sacred-texts.com/etc/mhs/mhs09.htm

As the thread was about Polish Sabres, I found this about Polish coats of arms...these particularly have horseshoes within them.....it could suggest the importance of 'the horseshoe' ..... a reference to Polish history/mythology ?

http://209.85.129.104/search?q=cache...&ct=clnk&cd=14

[wolviex]

Dear All!

So it seems that statement made in book was just a general thought that leaves some doubts for the reader, but indeed we can agree horseshoes migh have been used in a process of making blade. But it still seems to me it is impossible to make entire blade only with horseshoes, not such good one as seen with hussars sabres anyway. So the thought of the author was just a bit to short to explain it properly IMO.

And I see most of you left "natural forging" without comment...

Katana: no there is no special talismanic, mythologic or historic connection with horseshoe in Poland except prejudice that hanged in house can bring a bit of luck, but it isn't such important for Polish minds to have any significance in art or craftmenship. And yes, you can see the sign of horseshoe on few Polish coat-of -arms, but only on few ones. There are also many other different symbols and objects used in very rich Polish heraldy, and all depends on family history or taste of noblemen, so the plot won't take us far that way - sorry.
The full inscription on the blade is IEZVS MARIA IOZEF DEVS SPES MEA where "V" is made as "U" - it is easier to engrave or stamp, and "I" as "J". It means in English "JESUS MARY JOSEPH, GOD IS MY HOPE".

Regards!

[katana]

Thanks Wolviex,
I did put the phrase on a 'translation' web site....and got just 'Mary' .......foolishly I didn't consider the 'V' 's to be 'U' 's etc....thankyou for the explanation.

As to the "natural forging" I agree with the other statements that this (probably) refers to the slight 'hardening' of the iron with the constant impact of the shoe on ground. ..... a 'romantic' notion I feel as this effect AFAIK is only slight.

[Lew]

Hi All

Just to throw in my 2 cents. Why would 19th century swordsmiths in Europe bother with making blades out of horse shoes which were basically wrought iron? The sword makers were all pretty well established in their trade and had access to better sources of steel such as cast steel and blister steel. It sounds like an urban legend to me

Lew

[wolviex]

That's a good point Lew. We are talking about 17th/18th century sabres, but it doesn't change anything.

But as an advocate of evil I can answer your question - they bothered, because it was cheaper

And another thought! We can agree there were in use horseshoes as an additional material during the process. But I think not only, or are they something special? I would use also spurs, broken blades etc.... So what would make horseshoes so special that Author pointed it out - nothing? a curiosity of an object? ...

[Jeff D]

"The hammering of the iron, at first by hand and later by water powered hammers, played a necessary part in the production of quality iron. The slag which remained in the wrought iron from the earliest smelting processes and later from any of the several pig iron refining processes, was evenly distributed as uniformly oriented, elongated threads or "stringers" throughout the hot iron by the blows of the hammer. This fibrous structure was the source of good toughness and corrosion resistance of wrought iron. The best wrought iron would contain as many as 250,000 uniformly orientated hairlike stringers of slag per square inch of cross section. Only after the earliest studies of iron with the microscope towards the end of the nineteeth century were the reasons behind the beneficial effect of hammering well understood- but awareness had come long before understanding. In the early descriptions of iron and steel making, old horseshoes and horseshoe nails are frequently cited as a necessary ingredient of the best quality products. This practice is an extension of the well foundered but somewhat obsessive commitment to hammering. The constant pounding of these shoes and nails on cobblestone pavements served as hammering which, it was thought, continued to improve the iron of which they were made even as they were being worn beyond usefulness."

Pg 22-23 Fighting Iron A metal handbook for the Arms Collectors 1999 by Art Gogan.

Hope this clears things up a little.
Jeff

[Rick]

Possibly this picture of a section of an ancient keris blade may illustrate this wrought iron stranding phenomenon.

[Jim McDougall]

Interesting note on the horseshoes etc. used in forging these blades. I am the first to admit my limited understanding of metallurgy, but I find the perspective of finding folklore from observing normal practical functionality quite common during those times. Consider the very superstitious and wary manner which blacksmiths were perceived, and of course the intriguing stories that were often contrived about them.

If the blacksmith was observed adding old horseshoes into the crucible in making steel for blades, of course it is quite possible such deliberate use might be interpreted by superstitious observers for special or even occult purpose. However, I somehow get the impression the author (and I have a vague idea of who it might be may have deviously meant the comment 'tongue in cheek' with reference to the plethora of folklore concerning arms and armor during these times.

In addition to what Jeff has already added concerning horsehoes and nails being used in making steel, I found the following, which may be the reference Jens had noted,
"...in the Persian method of casting Damascus steel small segments of hammered and polished soft iron or wrought iron, or small hammered and polished pieces of iron salvaged from worn horseshoes and nails were placed in a crucible with carboniferous materials".
"On Damascus Steel", Dr.L.Figiel, 1991, p.18.

I would imagine that heaps of discarded horseshoes at a blacksmith shop where horses were of course reshod would have been a quite accessible commodity for this process.

Best regards,
Jim

[wolviex]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

"The hammering of the iron, at first by hand and later by water powered hammers, played a necessary part in the production of quality iron. The slag which remained in the wrought iron from the earliest smelting processes and later from any of the several pig iron refining processes, was evenly distributed as uniformly oriented, elongated threads or "stringers" throughout the hot iron by the blows of the hammer. This fibrous structure was the source of good toughness and corrosion resistance of wrought iron. The best wrought iron would contain as many as 250,000 uniformly orientated hairlike stringers of slag per square inch of cross section. Only after the earliest studies of iron with the microscope towards the end of the nineteeth century were the reasons behind the beneficial effect of hammering well understood- but awareness had come long before understanding. In the early descriptions of iron and steel making, old horseshoes and horseshoe nails are frequently cited as a necessary ingredient of the best quality products. This practice is an extension of the well foundered but somewhat obsessive commitment to hammering. The constant pounding of these shoes and nails on cobblestone pavements served as hammering which, it was thought, continued to improve the iron of which they were made even as they were being worn beyond usefulness."

Pg 22-23 Fighting Iron A metal handbook for the Arms Collectors 1999 by Art Gogan.

Hope this clears things up a little.
Jeff

IT IS QUITE AMAZING. I think I should RETURN ALL HONOR TO THE AUTHOR. Both are deffinietely writing about the same process, and there is of course one 'but' - Polish author could just use the same book for collectors as Jeff has.
If ANYONE have ANYTHING like Jeff what would proof, let's call it further "natural forging" please post it here!

[Jeff D]

Hi Michal,

I have no absolute proof, but I have worked with horses and their shoes all my life. The phenomenon of their shoes lasting longer after continued use has been quite noticable to me. Since most blacksmiths were also the farriers I can't imagine this passing their observation. I don't think the shoes were remelted in a crucible, rather they were hammer welded together, this process would also add more carbon to the product. The process of adding more carbon as well as further organizing the stringers with continued hammering during the forging of a blade intuitively makes sense.
I would also like to hear what Greg, Rick and the other smiths have to say on this topic.

All the Best.
Jeff

[Gt Obach]

Hi
making some assumptions here... - that the material is wrought iron... of high quality.
in my opinion it would be very desirable for blade making... a high quality wrought iron in a damascus mix... for example... a file steel will have a very high carbon level.. to cut it down abit for a sword blade, i'd mix in some wrought iron into the folding process. After so many welding heats, the carbon kinda evens out and you have a lovely folded pattern in the blade.

are the horse shoes and nails carburized ?

reason i ask is that maybe a good reason to add them if they are..

if you've used some very low quality wrought iron... and tried to make a nail out of it... you'd have a very hard time to hammer it through wood without predrilling a hole... .. it would be like hammering a copper nail into wood... it would buckle if too much resistance is there...

maybe the same is of horse shoes.. they maybe of a high quality wrought iron..... unlike some of the wagon wheels/tires ...those are usually low quality
I imagine that the horses feet would also test out the wrought for any weaknesses or large slag inclusions ... like a proof test

also for a sword steel ... you want a very high quality wrought iron/steel..... look at the japanese swords... very high quality bloom steels..... with many folds to make the steel as homogeneous as possible.

by folding the bloom over and over... you turn a low quality muck bar/wrought iron into a higher quality wrought.(very fine and numerous strands)
-- wrought iron chains are usually high quality

so by starting out with a decent quality wrought iron... you'd spare yourself alot of work folding muck bar into a better wrought iron

Wrought iron is a beautiful material to add to damascus... because it loves to forge weld ... it sticks like glue with very little flux..... due to the self fluxing nature of the siliceous slags in the metal..... with good welds... you increase your chance of a very good sword !

after the welding process is done... you'd have a hard time telling what materials were used... as long as the carbon level is decent for a sword... -you could etch the sword to look for pattern welds... but if it was folded many times, it may be very homogenous
-- I think the Polish sabers were very good ... so the smiths must have known what they were doing...

Recycling is also important... good iron and steels, it only makes sense to reuse them..

- i still to this day hunt for wrought iron... over the holidays i brought back a 2foot by 1"by1/4" bar of wrought on the plane ride back... (checked luggage ofcourse)

take care
Greg

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Greg,

I have never seen that horse shoes were used for ingots, so I have always presumed that they were used then forging a blade – and one more thing, the horse shoes used then, could have been made of different iron than used for the shoes to day, and this could mean a different end result.

Jens

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Greg,

It seems that I have seen that horseshoes and nails were used directly in crucibles, but I did not think of it, the reason must be that it was not horseshoes, but mule shoes.

Persian Steel by James Allan and Brian Gilmour, pages 41-79. On page 61 a recipe is given where some of the things, which should be used, are mule shoes and nails. Other old recipes on how to make crucibles are also given.

[Gt Obach]

thanks Jens

that is a good reference.

seems like recycling of metal has deep roots !

Greg

[Jim McDougall]

Just located another interesting item concerning superstition and folklore as applied to weapons, in 19th c. Sweden and certainly considerable time prior;
"...in Swedish folklore rifles were associated with various popular and magical beliefs, mostly concerning the ability of the weapons to hit and kill its target. The rifle itself could be a magical item, For example the material a good rifle barrel should be made of, should contain nails from a cemetary, a piece of silver, bones from an executed man and coffin nails".

taken from Pers-Anders Ostling, "Rifles in Swedish Folklore:Magical Properties of Weapons", in Vol.#4 2003, p.26, "Varia: Journal of the Swedish Arms & Armour Society".

While obviously pertaining to firearms, I have simply included this item to illustrate superstitious concepts often applied to weapons, which extended of course in many cases even more so to edged weapons. The inclusion of various botanicals believed to possess key metaphysical properties into the processing of steel is well described by Robert Elgood in "Hindu Arms and Ritual", and it there are likely many other instances that may be found in other cultures, certainly in the Indonesian cultural sphere.

While excellent suggestions have been presented in the discussion that describe the dynamics of metallurgy and the adding of forged metal from such sources as nails and horseshoes from practical standpoint, I feel that the folklore perspective may have a degree of plausibility as well. Although we view such topics with much more scientific perspective today, I think we must remember the environment in which such things were viewed in the period we are considering.

While the blacksmiths were probably using the materials we are discussing with sound reason and for reasons known only unto themselves, those who described these processes in many cases certainly embellished these descriptions imbued with thier own limited knowledge of the procedures as well as thier own superstitious beliefs.

Best regards,
Jim

[Jeff D]

Hi Jim,

As always these threads have me intrigued. Now let me turn it around on you. Instead of horseshoes being used for their magical properties, how about the magical (superstitious) properties of horseshoes coming from their practical properties. A townsman observing a blacksmith hammering old beat up shoes into a magnificent weapon, would have to conclude there must be some old magics in them thar shoes.

Just for fun
Jeff

[Jim McDougall]

I enjoy 'em too Jeff! and that is exactly what I had in mind, surely the simple perception of the blacksmith, already typically regarded as a somewhat sinister character, throwing old horseshoes into the mix and creating these deadly blades, probably might have meant there were some key powers in those shoes.

Finally find this reference (and the library is now in shambles It would seem there are many superstitious allusions concerning horseshoes in folklore from ancient times that evolved into local folklore;
"...horseshoes are nailed with seven iron nails. Seven is probably the most important number in the world of superstition. The nails used by the blacksmith have magic as powerful as the horseshoe itself. Rings made from these nails are said to give the same protection against evil as the horsehoe. When you put a 'found' (important that you 'find' it) horseshoe on a barn as an amulet, you are following in the footsteps of the Greeks and Romans who believed firmly in the protective powers of the horseshoe".

from "Knock on Wood: n Encyclopedia of Talismans, Charms, Supersitions & Symbols", Carole Potter, N.Y.1983, p.104.

When you go into the folklore and myths around these weapons, and the interpretation of the talismanic and cabalistic markings on the blades of them, it becomes fascinating to see the parallels in these beliefs in the 'civilized' world to similar applications in the tribal worlds. Think for example of the distinctive geometric designs on the flyssa, intended for protection from the evil eye, for one.

Knowledge and study of such folklore is often key to clues in arms and armor research, and really does take the fascination, intrigue and yup! fun!! to profound dimensions.

Thanks for always keepin' it that way Jeff!!!!

All the best,
Jim

[Jeff D]

While we are at it, The horse shoe pointing up is supposed to ward off the evil eye by representing the cresent shape of the moon. Empirically this is all baloney! Of course that hasn't stopped me from having a "found" shoe under the floor mat of my truck(s) for the last twenty some years.

Scientifically yours
Jeff

P.S. a modern shoe uses 8 nails.

[Jim McDougall]

LOL!
Right on Jeff! you can never be too careful ! and since the modern shoes use 8 nails, they gotta be even luckier?!!!
So perhaps the horseshoe upright has something to do with the crescent moons that typically show up on the talismanic blades? Maybe we're onto something
All the best,
your fellow scientist
Jim