A bronze Keris hilt - help needed to identify figure etc.

Loedjoe · 5th June 2019, 05:27 PM

Bronze keris hilt, perhaps Javanese? 8 cm. Does it depict a priest or deity?
The right hand pointing upwards, resembling the Buddhistic 'Gesture of Protection' (abhaya). The left hand pointing downwards in a similar gesture; an elephant depicted at the base, on the front.
Any information from some of the many experts on the Forum would be welcome.

kai · 5th June 2019, 07:43 PM

Hello Tim,

that's an unusual piece - certainly looks like a keris hilt!

Could you please post pics from all sides for a better appraisal?

Regards,
Kai

Jean · 7th June 2019, 10:20 AM

I have no clue but it looks a very old and rare piece and probably javanese indeed.
Congratulations and best regards

A. G. Maisey · 7th June 2019, 01:48 PM

I also cannot assist Tim, however, even though this hand position does resemble one or more Buddhist hand positions, I suspect it could be that to attach this hilt to a Buddhist relationship + a keris relationship might be the wrong way to go.

I have never seen representations of keris, nor of keris-like objects in a Buddhist setting, and since the keris is a symbol of Siwa, this is totally understandable.

So, if we opt for a Buddhist relationship we probably should remove the keris from the equation. Some other type of weapon, or even object, but not a keris.

Similarly, if we opt for a keris relationship maybe Buddha has got to leave the room.

We have an elephant + some other animal. Do we know what the other animal is?

If we were to understand the hand position as a Hindu, what might we be looking at?

Jean · 7th June 2019, 09:59 PM

The face rather looks like a Hindu demon with bulging eyes than a Buddhist figure.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 7th June 2019, 11:31 PM

Are fangs visible?

Even very small rudimentary ones would do, but unless we have those we cannot begin to think "raksasa".

Rick · 8th June 2019, 02:32 AM

It would be nice to see this object photographed perhaps in open shade sunlight and a bit sharper, perhaps a view from the back also.

Jean · 8th June 2019, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Are fangs visible?

Even very small rudimentary ones would do, but unless we have those we cannot begin to think "raksasa".

Thank you, corrected.

A. G. Maisey · 8th June 2019, 10:59 PM

Maybe there are fangs there Jean, I just cannot see the detail of this hilt well enough on my screen to know with certainty.

kai · 8th June 2019, 11:31 PM

Tim asked me to extend thanks to all who responded!

He seems to have problems with logging in and I hope he'll be back soon.

I'm adding a few more pics he send me for posting; Tim will try to take some more.

Regards,
Kai

Rick · 9th June 2019, 01:44 AM

I'm getting the impression from the images that Kai has posted that there is a Tumpal Throne involved here.

kai · 9th June 2019, 09:54 AM

Yes, Rick, some of the tumpal motifs have been preserved in this design.

There also seems to be a garuda mungkur at the back of the head.

I'm fairly sure there are fangs - we need sharper pics for verification though.

There seem to be 2 elephants depicted at the front.

The hilt sure does seem to have some age despite metal castings being notoriously difficult to appraise. However, I don't see any of the common motifs/details of very early carved hilts and suspect this piece is later work.

Tim, any resin (or wood) inside the hilt?

Regards,
Kai

Marcokeris · 9th June 2019, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Yes, Rick, some of the tumpal motifs have been preserved in this design.

There also seems to be a garuda mungkur at the back of the head.

I'm fairly sure there are fangs - we need sharper pics for verification though.

There seem to be 2 elephants depicted at the front.

The hilt sure does seem to have some age despite metal castings being notoriously difficult to appraise. However, I don't see any of the common motifs/details of very early carved hilts and suspect this piece is later work.

Tim, any resin (or wood) inside the hilt?

Regards,
Kai

I agree..... Interesting handle and I think it could be old

Jean · 9th June 2019, 08:18 PM

I notice that the pesi hole is very wide, any missing materials inside?
Regards

Bjorn · 18th July 2019, 07:11 AM

It seems the question of the mudra was never resolved.
From the photos - and perhaps on item-in-hand as well - it's difficult to see the exact positioning of the fingers.
As fas as I can tell, the middle and ring fingers are extended.
The thumb is visible, though I can't see what the index finger is doing.
And the pinkie seems a little strange to me. It gives the appearance of being bent (due to the thickening of the material), but going by length that doesn't make sense.

Of course it could be that the casting was imperfect. Perhaps only 4 fingers were cast. Perhaps the design of the mudra was not carefully considered by the maker.

5th June 2019, 05:27 PM	#1
Loedjoe Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Oxford (UK) Posts: 96	A bronze Keris hilt - help needed to identify figure etc. Bronze keris hilt, perhaps Javanese? 8 cm. Does it depict a priest or deity? The right hand pointing upwards, resembling the Buddhistic 'Gesture of Protection' (abhaya). The left hand pointing downwards in a similar gesture; an elephant depicted at the base, on the front. Any information from some of the many experts on the Forum would be welcome. Attached Images

7th June 2019, 09:59 PM	#5
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	The face rather looks like a Hindu demon with bulging eyes than a Buddhist figure. Regards Last edited by Jean; 8th June 2019 at 03:07 PM.

8th June 2019, 11:31 PM	#10
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Tim asked me to extend thanks to all who responded! He seems to have problems with logging in and I hope he'll be back soon. I'm adding a few more pics he send me for posting; Tim will try to take some more. Regards, Kai Attached Images

5th June 2019, 07:43 PM	#2
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Tim, that's an unusual piece - certainly looks like a keris hilt! Could you please post pics from all sides for a better appraisal? Regards, Kai

7th June 2019, 10:20 AM	#3
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	I have no clue but it looks a very old and rare piece and probably javanese indeed. Congratulations and best regards

7th June 2019, 01:48 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	I also cannot assist Tim, however, even though this hand position does resemble one or more Buddhist hand positions, I suspect it could be that to attach this hilt to a Buddhist relationship + a keris relationship might be the wrong way to go. I have never seen representations of keris, nor of keris-like objects in a Buddhist setting, and since the keris is a symbol of Siwa, this is totally understandable. So, if we opt for a Buddhist relationship we probably should remove the keris from the equation. Some other type of weapon, or even object, but not a keris. Similarly, if we opt for a keris relationship maybe Buddha has got to leave the room. We have an elephant + some other animal. Do we know what the other animal is? If we were to understand the hand position as a Hindu, what might we be looking at?

7th June 2019, 11:31 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Are fangs visible? Even very small rudimentary ones would do, but unless we have those we cannot begin to think "raksasa".

8th June 2019, 02:32 AM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	It would be nice to see this object photographed perhaps in open shade sunlight and a bit sharper, perhaps a view from the back also.

8th June 2019, 10:59 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Maybe there are fangs there Jean, I just cannot see the detail of this hilt well enough on my screen to know with certainty.

9th June 2019, 01:44 AM	#11
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I'm getting the impression from the images that Kai has posted that there is a Tumpal Throne involved here.

9th June 2019, 09:54 AM	#12
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Yes, Rick, some of the tumpal motifs have been preserved in this design. There also seems to be a garuda mungkur at the back of the head. I'm fairly sure there are fangs - we need sharper pics for verification though. There seem to be 2 elephants depicted at the front. The hilt sure does seem to have some age despite metal castings being notoriously difficult to appraise. However, I don't see any of the common motifs/details of very early carved hilts and suspect this piece is later work. Tim, any resin (or wood) inside the hilt? Regards, Kai

9th June 2019, 08:18 PM	#14
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	I notice that the pesi hole is very wide, any missing materials inside? Regards

18th July 2019, 07:11 AM	#15
Bjorn Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 188	It seems the question of the mudra was never resolved. From the photos - and perhaps on item-in-hand as well - it's difficult to see the exact positioning of the fingers. As fas as I can tell, the middle and ring fingers are extended. The thumb is visible, though I can't see what the index finger is doing. And the pinkie seems a little strange to me. It gives the appearance of being bent (due to the thickening of the material), but going by length that doesn't make sense. Of course it could be that the casting was imperfect. Perhaps only 4 fingers were cast. Perhaps the design of the mudra was not carefully considered by the maker.