Kris from Java, 1811 (c).

David R · 26th August 2015, 09:39 PM

This turned up on my News feed, and I thought it might interest some of you, a nice old Keris with provenance.
http://www.nam.ac.uk/online-collecti...=1963-10-309-1

David · 26th August 2015, 11:46 PM

Thanks David. An interesting keris. I'm not convinced that the hilt is Sulawesi. I wonder if it is possible that this hilt is from Cirebon?
I am also not sure i would call the dating here strong provenance.
"It was thought to have been taken at the storming of Ft. Cornelius in Batavia."
"Thought" by whom and why?
A nice keris though. Shame the sheath did not survive.
Here is more info on the supposed war that it was spoils from.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Java_(1811)
And the general who is mentioned in the National Army Museum write-up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Auchmuty_(British_Army_officer)

A. G. Maisey · 27th August 2015, 12:24 AM

Thanks David R., a very nice keris.

Rick · 27th August 2015, 12:48 AM

Now this fellow lived in interesting times .

What life of adventure !

Sir Samuel was born at New York City in 1756, and educated at King's College, the progenitor of today's Columbia University, where he graduated in 1775. A loyalist, during the American War of Independence he was given an ensigncy in the loyal army in 1777, and in 1778 a lieutenancy in the 45th Foot, without purchase. When his regiment returned to England after the war, having neither private means nor influence, he exchanged into the 52nd (Oxfordshire) Regiment of Foot, in order to proceed to India.

He took part in the last war against Hyder Ali; he was given a staff appointment by Lord Cornwallis in 1790, served in the operations against Tippoo Sahib, and continued in various staff appointments up to 1797, when he returned to England a brevet lieutenant colonel.

In 1800 he was made lieutenant-colonel and brevet colonel; and in the following year, as adjutant-general to Sir David Baird in Egypt, took a distinguished share in the march across the desert and the Capture of Alexandria. On his return to England in 1803 he was knighted, and three years later he went out to the Río de la Plata as a brigadier-general. Auchmuty was one of the few officers who came out of the disastrous Buenos Aires expedition of 1806-7 with enhanced reputation. While General John Whitelocke, the commander, was cashiered, Auchmuty was at once re-employed and promoted major-general. In 1810 he was appointed to command the Madras Army.

In the following year he commanded the expedition organized for the conquest of Java, which the governor-general, Lord Minto, himself accompanied. The storming of the strongly fortified position of Meester Cornelis (28 August 1811), stubbornly defended by a Dutch garrison under General Janssens, practically achieved conquest of the island, and after the action of Samarang (8 September 1811) Janssens surrendered. Auchmuty received the thanks of Parliament and was appointed KCB and, on his return home, was promoted to the rank of lieutenant general. In 1822 he became Commander-in-Chief, Ireland, and a member of the Irish privy council. He died suddenly in August 1822.

Gustav · 27th August 2015, 12:59 AM

Hilt and Pendokok are sumatran, hilt more likely north sumatran.

A very nice Keris indeed, thank you very much for posting.

The second picture, correct orientation:

David · 27th August 2015, 04:50 PM

Thanks for flipping the keris Gustav. I agree that Sumatra is a likely origin for this hilt. I do feel that we are probably looking at a Javanese blade though which has me wondering about the marriage and who might have owned such a keris in Batavia in 1811.

A. G. Maisey · 28th August 2015, 12:43 AM

The blade is certainly a Javanese style and form, however there was a political and cultural link between the Javanese courts and the courts of South Sumatra for a very long time. Keris made in Central Jawa were present in South Sumatra, and some keris made in South Sumatra copied Central Javanese style and form. South Sumatra also had links with North Coast Jawa. It is not at all surprising that a keris like this could turn up in Batavia in the early 19th century.

David · 28th August 2015, 07:07 AM

No, not surprising, just wish we had more to go on. Of course Gustav has described this as a Northern Sumatran form, but i would also not be surprise that influences went further than Palembang. It would be interesting to know what sheath this wore.

A. G. Maisey · 28th August 2015, 09:59 AM

David, Gustav was talking about the hilt and pendongkok, I'm talking about the keris itself:- the blade. Lots of dress variation in South Sumatra keris.

Gustav · 28th August 2015, 10:54 AM

I will try to put my thoughts, when seeing the pictures of this Keris, in words.

OK, let's jump in cold water.

When I see this Keris, word "Mojopahit" comes in my mind. Yet I cannot be sure at all if it is a Keris from time period when Mojopahit existed. As I understand, there was a Mojopahit "revival" under Sultan Agungs reign, and perhaps it wasn't the only one.

And then there are South Sumatran forms of such kerisses. The variation here can have very big range, from quite primitive specimens to Keris, where I am not able to be sure about the exact origin.

Surely such influence of javanese court in Sumatra can be traced back to Adityawarman, who most probably was a cousin of Jayanegara.

This is so especially when I see a picture of some Megantoro. two or three of them come with South Sumatran hilts, like perhaps the most perfect Megantoro in existence, from book of Bezemer. I don't have it here, so I cannot tell, if the Pendok, which looks like mismatch, is added after the publication. Surely it had also a Pendok there.

Yet the present pendok clearly is not Solonese, and I never before have seen such pattern on a Pendok of Yogya style.

Actually when I look at a Megantoro, the whole idea seems to me un-javanese. I cannot describe this feeling. Perhaps a small support to this heretical thought would be the fact there is no Megantoro form in Bali. Yet we all know at least one variation of Megantoro in North Sumatran dress, in van Duurens Book.

To answer Davids question, I suppose, at some time the Keris of this thread had a sheath like Bezemers Megantoro, or captain Swanns Keris from Hales book.

Also attached a picture from Solyoms publication about Lampung, to illustrate how unexpected sheath forms could pop up in South Sumatra.

asomotif · 28th August 2015, 01:20 PM

[QUOTE=Gustav]Hilt and Pendokok are sumatran, hilt more likely north sumatran.
QUOTE]

Check for Gayo / gajo or aceh / atjeh hilts.
Definately Northern Sumatra imo.

Best regards,
Willem

David · 28th August 2015, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, Gustav was talking about the hilt and pendongkok, I'm talking about the keris itself:- the blade. Lots of dress variation in South Sumatra keris.

Yes Alan, i am quite aware that Gustav was talking about the hilt and penokok. Perhaps you hadn't been following my train of thought all along which was trying to rationalize this hilt form with this blade. I'm not sure if a North Sumatran hilt on a Palembang blade would be any less out of place than one on a Javanese blade. Sorry if my last statement confused you. It was written late in the day.

A. G. Maisey · 29th August 2015, 12:04 AM

Thanks for the clarification David.

Yes, I did not follow your train of thought.

In truth, I do not have even the slightest curiosity about the mating of this hilt with this blade. There are just so many possible explanations that any speculation is in my opinion pretty pointless. If the blade was in a properly fitted wrongko some speculation might be justified, but with just a hilt? From my perspective, I don't think so.

David · 29th August 2015, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thanks for the clarification David.

Yes, I did not follow your train of thought.

In truth, I do not have even the slightest curiosity about the mating of this hilt with this blade. There are just so many possible explanations that any speculation is in my opinion pretty pointless. If the blade was in a properly fitted wrongko some speculation might be justified, but with just a hilt? From my perspective, I don't think so.

Well again Alan, that is why i stated, twice, that it was a shame that there is no sheath with this keris. This is also why i was questioning for more information on the rather vague provenance since i would image that when this hilt was actually married to this blade would present different possibilities for the reasons why they came together. As to the value of speculation, given the limited information, the one poor photo, the inaccurate description (this most certainly does not appear to be a Sulawesi hilt), etc, we can either speculate or simply say nice looking keris with an unusual pairing with a Northern Sumatran hilt, shrug our shoulders and move on...

A. G. Maisey · 29th August 2015, 10:28 AM

Yep, that's about what I did do David:- my first post to this thread.

My problem is, and it is a continuing one, and I recognise it, I have very, very slight interest in the aspects of the keris that are of interest to most people.

Because of this I try to avoid as best I can the posting of comments that the bulk of people are not interested in, or that might generate some sort of controversy. In so far as I am able, I do try to limit my comments to positive ones that might contribute to an increase in knowledge and understanding.

26th August 2015, 09:39 PM	#1
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	Kris from Java, 1811 (c). This turned up on my News feed, and I thought it might interest some of you, a nice old Keris with provenance. http://www.nam.ac.uk/online-collecti...=1963-10-309-1 Attached Images

27th August 2015, 12:48 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	S. Auchmuty Col. Now this fellow lived in interesting times . What life of adventure ! Sir Samuel was born at New York City in 1756, and educated at King's College, the progenitor of today's Columbia University, where he graduated in 1775. A loyalist, during the American War of Independence he was given an ensigncy in the loyal army in 1777, and in 1778 a lieutenancy in the 45th Foot, without purchase. When his regiment returned to England after the war, having neither private means nor influence, he exchanged into the 52nd (Oxfordshire) Regiment of Foot, in order to proceed to India. He took part in the last war against Hyder Ali; he was given a staff appointment by Lord Cornwallis in 1790, served in the operations against Tippoo Sahib, and continued in various staff appointments up to 1797, when he returned to England a brevet lieutenant colonel. In 1800 he was made lieutenant-colonel and brevet colonel; and in the following year, as adjutant-general to Sir David Baird in Egypt, took a distinguished share in the march across the desert and the Capture of Alexandria. On his return to England in 1803 he was knighted, and three years later he went out to the Río de la Plata as a brigadier-general. Auchmuty was one of the few officers who came out of the disastrous Buenos Aires expedition of 1806-7 with enhanced reputation. While General John Whitelocke, the commander, was cashiered, Auchmuty was at once re-employed and promoted major-general. In 1810 he was appointed to command the Madras Army. In the following year he commanded the expedition organized for the conquest of Java, which the governor-general, Lord Minto, himself accompanied. The storming of the strongly fortified position of Meester Cornelis (28 August 1811), stubbornly defended by a Dutch garrison under General Janssens, practically achieved conquest of the island, and after the action of Samarang (8 September 1811) Janssens surrendered. Auchmuty received the thanks of Parliament and was appointed KCB and, on his return home, was promoted to the rank of lieutenant general. In 1822 he became Commander-in-Chief, Ireland, and a member of the Irish privy council. He died suddenly in August 1822.

27th August 2015, 12:59 AM	#5
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,247	Hilt and Pendokok are sumatran, hilt more likely north sumatran. A very nice Keris indeed, thank you very much for posting. The second picture, correct orientation: Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 27th August 2015 at 01:10 AM.

28th August 2015, 10:54 AM	#10
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,247	I will try to put my thoughts, when seeing the pictures of this Keris, in words. OK, let's jump in cold water. When I see this Keris, word "Mojopahit" comes in my mind. Yet I cannot be sure at all if it is a Keris from time period when Mojopahit existed. As I understand, there was a Mojopahit "revival" under Sultan Agungs reign, and perhaps it wasn't the only one. And then there are South Sumatran forms of such kerisses. The variation here can have very big range, from quite primitive specimens to Keris, where I am not able to be sure about the exact origin. Surely such influence of javanese court in Sumatra can be traced back to Adityawarman, who most probably was a cousin of Jayanegara. This is so especially when I see a picture of some Megantoro. two or three of them come with South Sumatran hilts, like perhaps the most perfect Megantoro in existence, from book of Bezemer. I don't have it here, so I cannot tell, if the Pendok, which looks like mismatch, is added after the publication. Surely it had also a Pendok there. Yet the present pendok clearly is not Solonese, and I never before have seen such pattern on a Pendok of Yogya style. Actually when I look at a Megantoro, the whole idea seems to me un-javanese. I cannot describe this feeling. Perhaps a small support to this heretical thought would be the fact there is no Megantoro form in Bali. Yet we all know at least one variation of Megantoro in North Sumatran dress, in van Duurens Book. To answer Davids question, I suppose, at some time the Keris of this thread had a sheath like Bezemers Megantoro, or captain Swanns Keris from Hales book. Also attached a picture from Solyoms publication about Lampung, to illustrate how unexpected sheath forms could pop up in South Sumatra. Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 28th August 2015 at 01:18 PM.

26th August 2015, 11:46 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,121	Thanks David. An interesting keris. I'm not convinced that the hilt is Sulawesi. I wonder if it is possible that this hilt is from Cirebon? I am also not sure i would call the dating here strong provenance. "It was thought to have been taken at the storming of Ft. Cornelius in Batavia." "Thought" by whom and why? A nice keris though. Shame the sheath did not survive. Here is more info on the supposed war that it was spoils from. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Java_(1811) And the general who is mentioned in the National Army Museum write-up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Auchmuty_(British_Army_officer)

27th August 2015, 12:24 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Thanks David R., a very nice keris.

27th August 2015, 04:50 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,121	Thanks for flipping the keris Gustav. I agree that Sumatra is a likely origin for this hilt. I do feel that we are probably looking at a Javanese blade though which has me wondering about the marriage and who might have owned such a keris in Batavia in 1811.

28th August 2015, 12:43 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	The blade is certainly a Javanese style and form, however there was a political and cultural link between the Javanese courts and the courts of South Sumatra for a very long time. Keris made in Central Jawa were present in South Sumatra, and some keris made in South Sumatra copied Central Javanese style and form. South Sumatra also had links with North Coast Jawa. It is not at all surprising that a keris like this could turn up in Batavia in the early 19th century.

28th August 2015, 07:07 AM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,121	No, not surprising, just wish we had more to go on. Of course Gustav has described this as a Northern Sumatran form, but i would also not be surprise that influences went further than Palembang. It would be interesting to know what sheath this wore.

28th August 2015, 09:59 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	David, Gustav was talking about the hilt and pendongkok, I'm talking about the keris itself:- the blade. Lots of dress variation in South Sumatra keris.

28th August 2015, 01:20 PM	#11
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	[QUOTE=Gustav]Hilt and Pendokok are sumatran, hilt more likely north sumatran. QUOTE] Check for Gayo / gajo or aceh / atjeh hilts. Definately Northern Sumatra imo. Best regards, Willem

29th August 2015, 12:04 AM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Thanks for the clarification David. Yes, I did not follow your train of thought. In truth, I do not have even the slightest curiosity about the mating of this hilt with this blade. There are just so many possible explanations that any speculation is in my opinion pretty pointless. If the blade was in a properly fitted wrongko some speculation might be justified, but with just a hilt? From my perspective, I don't think so.

29th August 2015, 10:28 AM	#15
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Yep, that's about what I did do David:- my first post to this thread. My problem is, and it is a continuing one, and I recognise it, I have very, very slight interest in the aspects of the keris that are of interest to most people. Because of this I try to avoid as best I can the posting of comments that the bulk of people are not interested in, or that might generate some sort of controversy. In so far as I am able, I do try to limit my comments to positive ones that might contribute to an increase in knowledge and understanding.