Eastern Sword: Origin and Age?

Tatyana Dianova · 22nd May 2007, 08:45 AM

I would appreciate very much some help on the origin and age of the following sword. It is not large (60 cm wihout scabbard or 24 inches?), has very nice quality brass and silver fittings. The blade seems to be Europenean, very light one. In general it looks like a childs sword or ceremonial one. The most amazing about this sword is that it was heavily used: it has some nicks, the blade was reshaped (the groove runs almost to the blade tip) and was many times resharpened, so that it lost a lot of its thickness and width (judjing from its original thickness near the hilt and scabbard opening). It is still razor sharp, even after it was heavily rusted. My guess is that it may be from Ceylon or Thailand. Any other opinions?

Flavio · 22nd May 2007, 03:47 PM

Beautiful!! I think it's a Kastane. Congratulations

Andrew · 22nd May 2007, 04:00 PM

I don't think this is a kastane, Flavio, as it's missing the distinctive hilt elements of those swords.

The vegetal themes strike me as Thai or Burmese.

katana · 22nd May 2007, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flavio

Beautiful!! I think it's a Kastane. Congratulations

I can see what you mean......I too, thought a Kastane 'inspired' sword

But the decoration is not usual.

ariel · 22nd May 2007, 04:49 PM

SE Asia, for sure.
Quite reminescent of Vietnamese Guom ( don't get me wrong: it is not a classic Guom, but the flavor is there).

Tim Simmons · 22nd May 2007, 04:55 PM

It seems to me that there are two hands and origins on this piece. The brass work is so different from the white metal, which is very crude. I have a feeling this is European work. The leaves a cross between oak and acanthus. This repousse work is common to 18th and 19th century European metalware. The blade also looks European. The white metal bits are from elsewhere. I will post some pics latter.

Tim Simmons · 22nd May 2007, 05:11 PM

I will stick my neck out and say this was originally European and a copy of French work. I would say made somewhere East of France where the French taste was very much in favour.

Jim McDougall · 22nd May 2007, 05:18 PM

I go along with the SE Asia attribution on this, and note the incongruity of the white and brass metalwork. This seems interpretive of European officers sabres in the hilt reflecting the ribbed grips as well as the birdhead form pommel/backstrap (of course not suggesting that the pommel in any particular way represents the head of a bird

I would imagine this to date mid to latter 19th c. and am inclined to agree more with Thailand. The vegetal decoration does seem to favor acanthus, which of course was popular on the neoclassic theme often seen on the blade decoration on European officers sabres, in this case probably British and fashioned after the M1796 sabres . I have seen British officers M1796 sabres that are indeed quite small as well. The smaller size I think were for easier wear in formal events.

Best regards,
Jim

Flavio · 22nd May 2007, 06:00 PM

I apologize

. I remember to have seen this sword on ebay (perhaps I have also tried to bid) and somehow I remember to have thought (or found on some book) that this was some kind of kastane. I have watched on Stone, but it is not the right book. Simply, I was wrong.... So, Sorry

Jim McDougall · 22nd May 2007, 06:12 PM

No need to apologize to anyone Flavio!!! Yours was an honest assessment, and quite frankly, this piece does carry certain gestalt that might suggest Ceylon and a variation of kastane in some ways.
I'm always delighted when anyone steps forward and makes an observation or expresses an idea on a weapon....no matter what, we all learn together!

All the best,
Jim

Flavio · 22nd May 2007, 06:47 PM

Thank you for your kindness Jim

RSWORD · 22nd May 2007, 07:45 PM

I would vote Malaysia on this example. The scabbard style, with the European style drag, the belt hook and the open design work between the silver mounts, reminds me of some Pedang style swords, some with monster head hilts and some with this style of downcurving hilt. For a similar example, without scabbard, please refer to "Catalogue De La Collection D'Armes Anciennes" by Buttin, plate XXVII #904. That example, with similar style handle, is labeled as Malaysian Pirate sword.

Tim Simmons · 22nd May 2007, 08:06 PM

Surely this must be from French Indochina or areas under that colonial influence. A pirates weapon is a good suggestion. I wonder if it was taken and added to. It has been added to. The French style is undeniable in art work , blade and hilt.

Henk · 22nd May 2007, 08:09 PM

I go with RSWORD. The first thing I thought when I saw the scabbard was that it was made in Indonesia. I think it is a pedang. I don't have the books with me at this moment but I do remember and I thought it was in Van Zonneveld I saw a pedang with an European look.

Yannis · 23rd May 2007, 12:32 AM

Nice test. This sword look familiar to many of us for different reasons. I cannot say if it is East Asian, French or from outer space but it is an elegant, smart, antique piece from the colonized globalization of 19th century.

Will they look, 100 years from now, the fantasy swords of our time and wonder if they are Korean or American? In my opinion this piece is beautiful but it has no character. Or it has its own cosmopolitan status but no ethnic identity. Maybe this is also its main value, as early example of the international village.

Tatyana Dianova · 23rd May 2007, 08:58 AM

Thank you guys for your replies! This small sword appeared even more interesting, than I have thought. I like the pirate version the most

, at least it can explain why the sword have seen so much use during its life.
It is really an eBay find, where it was sold as a Kastane type sword. I bought it, because I liked its fittings.
I want to add one more picture: the monster head on the guard. Enjoy!

Jim McDougall · 23rd May 2007, 04:49 PM

Well said Yannis! The effects of globalization certainly are reflected in the diffusion of weapon forms and decorative styles, and extremely pronounced in the hotbed of trade in these regions in the 19th c.
Tatyana, the 'pirate' application could easily be the case, considering the profound activity taking place in these lucrative trade regions, and which still occurs there in modern times.

The blade on this certainly appears from a European hanger, but since it is an interpretation of European form in the mounts, it is hard to place which location might have fashioned it...however SE Asia seems likely. Is brasswork more commonly found there? It seems Indonesia favored more silverwork in the repousse there, would that be a correct assessment?

Best regards,
Jim

Nick Wardigo · 23rd May 2007, 09:43 PM

This piece is really fascinating.

Speaking as someone who has stared at Vietnamese motifs for way too long, I can say that this does NOT look Vietnamese to me. True, the foliage and curly-cues appear to have a French influence, but even the heavily-French-influenced Vietnamese swords lack the regularity of pattern I'm seeing here.

I like Rick's guess of Malaysia. The scabbard mounts remind me of weapons from there.

Take a look at the pommel. The ribbed grip is, obviously, patterned after European swords, but the patterning on the pommel looks familiar...I think I've seen something like it in carved ivory. Are there keris handles with this sort of patterning?

t_c · 24th May 2007, 03:01 AM

Good eye Nick,
It does seem similar to patterns on Madurese keris handles.

Rick · 24th May 2007, 03:36 PM

What strikes me is the difference in quality and execution between the white metal 'engraving' and the brass repousse on the scabbard and handle.
Could the white metal be a later addition to the scabbard; possibly to cover the loss of original decoration ?

Nick Wardigo · 25th May 2007, 01:51 PM

I agree, Rick...the vast difference in workmanship leads me to think that the white metal fittings were added later. In fact, I find it odd that all of the scabbard fittings are pressed up against one another; it's like the white metal fittings were never intended for this scabbard. I wonder if the white metal fittings came from another weapon entirely and were scavenged to complete this piece.

Rick · 25th May 2007, 02:15 PM

Hi Nick,
Agreed, the white metal pieces are definitely too close to the brass chape and throat.
I can't help but wonder if that area on the scabbard wasn't originally covered with leather or velvet.

Tatyana, does the blade appear to be hand forged?

Tatyana Dianova · 25th May 2007, 07:38 PM

What do you mean by "hand forged"? Using only manpower? Or the power hummers are also allowed? Are the 19c Europenean blades hand forged? But I am pretty sure that this blade was forged and not made from piece of steel like the modern touristic swords.

Rick · 25th May 2007, 08:32 PM

Hand forged in the context of my question meant by hand without power appliances; I'm sorry I didn't make my question clear enough.

Does it show a certain crudeness of manufacture that would place it out of the realm of European military blades?

Tatyana Dianova · 26th May 2007, 02:26 PM

No, it doesn't seem to be crude...

22nd May 2007, 08:45 AM	#1
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 695	Eastern Sword: Origin and Age? I would appreciate very much some help on the origin and age of the following sword. It is not large (60 cm wihout scabbard or 24 inches?), has very nice quality brass and silver fittings. The blade seems to be Europenean, very light one. In general it looks like a childs sword or ceremonial one. The most amazing about this sword is that it was heavily used: it has some nicks, the blade was reshaped (the groove runs almost to the blade tip) and was many times resharpened, so that it lost a lot of its thickness and width (judjing from its original thickness near the hilt and scabbard opening). It is still razor sharp, even after it was heavily rusted. My guess is that it may be from Ceylon or Thailand. Any other opinions? Attached Images

23rd May 2007, 08:58 AM	#16
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 695	Thank you guys for your replies! This small sword appeared even more interesting, than I have thought. I like the pirate version the most , at least it can explain why the sword have seen so much use during its life. It is really an eBay find, where it was sold as a Kastane type sword. I bought it, because I liked its fittings. I want to add one more picture: the monster head on the guard. Enjoy! Attached Images

22nd May 2007, 03:47 PM	#2
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Beautiful!! I think it's a Kastane. Congratulations

22nd May 2007, 04:00 PM	#3
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I don't think this is a kastane, Flavio, as it's missing the distinctive hilt elements of those swords. The vegetal themes strike me as Thai or Burmese.

22nd May 2007, 04:49 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	SE Asia, for sure. Quite reminescent of Vietnamese Guom ( don't get me wrong: it is not a classic Guom, but the flavor is there).

22nd May 2007, 04:55 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	It seems to me that there are two hands and origins on this piece. The brass work is so different from the white metal, which is very crude. I have a feeling this is European work. The leaves a cross between oak and acanthus. This repousse work is common to 18th and 19th century European metalware. The blade also looks European. The white metal bits are from elsewhere. I will post some pics latter.

22nd May 2007, 05:11 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	I will stick my neck out and say this was originally European and a copy of French work. I would say made somewhere East of France where the French taste was very much in favour.

22nd May 2007, 05:18 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	I go along with the SE Asia attribution on this, and note the incongruity of the white and brass metalwork. This seems interpretive of European officers sabres in the hilt reflecting the ribbed grips as well as the birdhead form pommel/backstrap (of course not suggesting that the pommel in any particular way represents the head of a bird I would imagine this to date mid to latter 19th c. and am inclined to agree more with Thailand. The vegetal decoration does seem to favor acanthus, which of course was popular on the neoclassic theme often seen on the blade decoration on European officers sabres, in this case probably British and fashioned after the M1796 sabres . I have seen British officers M1796 sabres that are indeed quite small as well. The smaller size I think were for easier wear in formal events. Best regards, Jim

22nd May 2007, 06:00 PM	#9
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	I apologize . I remember to have seen this sword on ebay (perhaps I have also tried to bid) and somehow I remember to have thought (or found on some book) that this was some kind of kastane. I have watched on Stone, but it is not the right book. Simply, I was wrong.... So, Sorry

22nd May 2007, 06:12 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	No need to apologize to anyone Flavio!!! Yours was an honest assessment, and quite frankly, this piece does carry certain gestalt that might suggest Ceylon and a variation of kastane in some ways. I'm always delighted when anyone steps forward and makes an observation or expresses an idea on a weapon....no matter what, we all learn together! All the best, Jim

22nd May 2007, 06:47 PM	#11
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Thank you for your kindness Jim

22nd May 2007, 07:45 PM	#12
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	I would vote Malaysia on this example. The scabbard style, with the European style drag, the belt hook and the open design work between the silver mounts, reminds me of some Pedang style swords, some with monster head hilts and some with this style of downcurving hilt. For a similar example, without scabbard, please refer to "Catalogue De La Collection D'Armes Anciennes" by Buttin, plate XXVII #904. That example, with similar style handle, is labeled as Malaysian Pirate sword.

22nd May 2007, 08:06 PM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Surely this must be from French Indochina or areas under that colonial influence. A pirates weapon is a good suggestion. I wonder if it was taken and added to. It has been added to. The French style is undeniable in art work , blade and hilt.

22nd May 2007, 08:09 PM	#14
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I go with RSWORD. The first thing I thought when I saw the scabbard was that it was made in Indonesia. I think it is a pedang. I don't have the books with me at this moment but I do remember and I thought it was in Van Zonneveld I saw a pedang with an European look.

23rd May 2007, 12:32 AM	#15
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Nice test. This sword look familiar to many of us for different reasons. I cannot say if it is East Asian, French or from outer space but it is an elegant, smart, antique piece from the colonized globalization of 19th century. Will they look, 100 years from now, the fantasy swords of our time and wonder if they are Korean or American? In my opinion this piece is beautiful but it has no character. Or it has its own cosmopolitan status but no ethnic identity. Maybe this is also its main value, as early example of the international village.

23rd May 2007, 04:49 PM	#17
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Well said Yannis! The effects of globalization certainly are reflected in the diffusion of weapon forms and decorative styles, and extremely pronounced in the hotbed of trade in these regions in the 19th c. Tatyana, the 'pirate' application could easily be the case, considering the profound activity taking place in these lucrative trade regions, and which still occurs there in modern times. The blade on this certainly appears from a European hanger, but since it is an interpretation of European form in the mounts, it is hard to place which location might have fashioned it...however SE Asia seems likely. Is brasswork more commonly found there? It seems Indonesia favored more silverwork in the repousse there, would that be a correct assessment? Best regards, Jim

23rd May 2007, 09:43 PM	#18
Nick Wardigo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 54	This piece is really fascinating. Speaking as someone who has stared at Vietnamese motifs for way too long, I can say that this does NOT look Vietnamese to me. True, the foliage and curly-cues appear to have a French influence, but even the heavily-French-influenced Vietnamese swords lack the regularity of pattern I'm seeing here. I like Rick's guess of Malaysia. The scabbard mounts remind me of weapons from there. Take a look at the pommel. The ribbed grip is, obviously, patterned after European swords, but the patterning on the pommel looks familiar...I think I've seen something like it in carved ivory. Are there keris handles with this sort of patterning?

24th May 2007, 03:01 AM	#19
t_c Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: ca, usa Posts: 92	Good eye Nick, It does seem similar to patterns on Madurese keris handles.

24th May 2007, 03:36 PM	#20
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	What strikes me is the difference in quality and execution between the white metal 'engraving' and the brass repousse on the scabbard and handle. Could the white metal be a later addition to the scabbard; possibly to cover the loss of original decoration ?

25th May 2007, 01:51 PM	#21
Nick Wardigo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 54	I agree, Rick...the vast difference in workmanship leads me to think that the white metal fittings were added later. In fact, I find it odd that all of the scabbard fittings are pressed up against one another; it's like the white metal fittings were never intended for this scabbard. I wonder if the white metal fittings came from another weapon entirely and were scavenged to complete this piece.

25th May 2007, 02:15 PM	#22
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Hi Nick, Agreed, the white metal pieces are definitely too close to the brass chape and throat. I can't help but wonder if that area on the scabbard wasn't originally covered with leather or velvet. Tatyana, does the blade appear to be hand forged?

25th May 2007, 07:38 PM	#23
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 695	What do you mean by "hand forged"? Using only manpower? Or the power hummers are also allowed? Are the 19c Europenean blades hand forged? But I am pretty sure that this blade was forged and not made from piece of steel like the modern touristic swords.

25th May 2007, 08:32 PM	#24
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Hand forged in the context of my question meant by hand without power appliances; I'm sorry I didn't make my question clear enough. Does it show a certain crudeness of manufacture that would place it out of the realm of European military blades?

26th May 2007, 02:26 PM	#25
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 695	No, it doesn't seem to be crude...