Real mortar/parapet gun/cannon or ?

M ELEY · 17th April 2009, 08:37 AM

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=360145891147

I wanted to bid on this piece so bad, but there were just a few red flags with it. I think there might be parts to a real cannon here, but I'm not sure where the real things start and the others end??

Notice it comes from S. America. Possibly a late 18th c. piece refitted for the Industrial Revolution late 19th with the machine-made threaded bolts. Is that some sort of bolster? i regret passing on it now, especially since the gent that got it only paid what he did- less than what you can get a signal cannon for. Opinions on authenticity? Age? Port of origin? Use at sea vs a fort gun? Odd construction? Thanks.

celtan · 17th April 2009, 01:23 PM

There's a larger similar one here (24"?), at an old stuff store in San Juan, kinda rusty. It's installed in a mount, I don't recall if it has wheels.

I can always go and ask them what they know about it

Myself, I think it's either a signal gun or a naval line thrower. Most probably the latter. These were often used to send packets between ships...

I believe the whole point of its design is that it is lighter , and probably came packed in a box, ready to be assembled. The barrel seems to be compound, like the first cannons were. Probably easier to make?

By the time of its manufacture, there were already better firing mechanisms than a touch hole, both flintlocks and percussion locks, which seem to suggest a simple, cheap tool nature.

Best

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=360145891147

I wanted to bid on this piece so bad, but there were just a few red flags with it. I think there might be parts to a real cannon here, but I'm not sure where the real things start and the others end??

Notice it comes from S. America. Possibly a late 18th c. piece refitted for the Industrial Revolution late 19th with the machine-made threaded bolts. Is that some sort of bolster? i regret passing on it now, especially since the gent that got it only paid what he did- less than what you can get a signal cannon for. Opinions on authenticity? Age? Port of origin? Use at sea vs a fort gun? Odd construction? Thanks.

M ELEY · 17th April 2009, 08:39 PM

Thanks so much for shedding light on this interesting piece, Celtan. That definitely fits. I too noticed the compound barrel, but hadn't thought about the touchhole vs flintlock mechanism. The flecks of garish blue paint reminded me about how many of the naval vessels at the time did have rather bright coloring to it's sides. I'm assuming from the odd framework that it was either mounted directly through a port of the ship or perhaps on an old wooden frame at one time? Still, an interesting piece. Thanks for commenting and I am a little relieved that it probably isn't a true cannon, mortar or howitzer.

kahnjar1 · 17th April 2009, 10:19 PM

I do not have any idea of the use of this item BUT....it looks as if it COULD be a breech loader, as there appears to be a very steep thread at the "knob" end where it enters the brass block. That in turn would withdraw the round "plug" shown at the breech end.
A most interesting piece!

Norman McCormick · 17th April 2009, 11:00 PM

Hi,
I think, the threaded rod is part of a clamp and the 'breech plug' the metal pad found on such systems.
Regards,
Norman.

M ELEY · 18th April 2009, 02:04 AM

Thank you, gentlemen, for remarking on this piece. Oh brother, I didn't even notice the threaded plug until you pointed it out. I assumed it was a front loader. As a breech loader, is it possible this was a true weapon vs signal cannon or rope thrower? Is it thick enough? Is it more likely that if a weapon, it would have been on a swivel vs it's stationary housing? Likewise, as the barrel appears to be of two pieces, does this make it an unlikely weapon? Oppinions?

celtan · 18th April 2009, 03:26 AM

Perhaps the threaded breech-plug was specifically designed to help remove failed charges after a hang fire? The rounded shape of its "cascabel" doesn't seem conducive to frequent use. Otherwise, it would have a more squarish form or even a hole, to help turn it with a key.

A gun of this mitey size would be much easier to load from the front...

Manuel Luis

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Thank you, gentlemen, for remarking on this piece. Oh brother, I didn't even notice the threaded plug until you pointed it out. I assumed it was a front loader. As a breech loader, is it possible this was a true weapon vs signal cannon or rope thrower? Is it thick enough? Is it more likely that if a weapon, it would have been on a swivel vs it's stationary housing? Likewise, as the barrel appears to be of two pieces, does this make it an unlikely weapon? Oppinions?

M ELEY · 19th April 2009, 03:46 AM

Thanks Manuel, and good point. Any guesses as to time period? Do you feel this could have been a small deck gun or more likely a signaler/line thrower? Thanks-
Mark

celtan · 19th April 2009, 03:55 AM

2nd half of 19th C..?

I'd go for the second alternative.

Best

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Thanks Manuel, and good point. Any guesses as to time period? Do you feel this could have been a small deck gun or more likely a signaler/line thrower? Thanks-
Mark

M ELEY · 19th April 2009, 04:55 AM

Thanks. I suspected as much due to the completely straight barrel and two-piece assembly. Still an interesting piece...

17th April 2009, 08:37 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,089	Real mortar/parapet gun/cannon or ? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=360145891147 I wanted to bid on this piece so bad, but there were just a few red flags with it. I think there might be parts to a real cannon here, but I'm not sure where the real things start and the others end?? Notice it comes from S. America. Possibly a late 18th c. piece refitted for the Industrial Revolution late 19th with the machine-made threaded bolts. Is that some sort of bolster? i regret passing on it now, especially since the gent that got it only paid what he did- less than what you can get a signal cannon for. Opinions on authenticity? Age? Port of origin? Use at sea vs a fort gun? Odd construction? Thanks. Last edited by M ELEY; 17th April 2009 at 08:43 AM. Reason: addition

17th April 2009, 08:39 PM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,089	Thanks so much for shedding light on this interesting piece, Celtan. That definitely fits. I too noticed the compound barrel, but hadn't thought about the touchhole vs flintlock mechanism. The flecks of garish blue paint reminded me about how many of the naval vessels at the time did have rather bright coloring to it's sides. I'm assuming from the odd framework that it was either mounted directly through a port of the ship or perhaps on an old wooden frame at one time? Still, an interesting piece. Thanks for commenting and I am a little relieved that it probably isn't a true cannon, mortar or howitzer.

17th April 2009, 10:19 PM	#4
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	I do not have any idea of the use of this item BUT....it looks as if it COULD be a breech loader, as there appears to be a very steep thread at the "knob" end where it enters the brass block. That in turn would withdraw the round "plug" shown at the breech end. A most interesting piece!

17th April 2009, 11:00 PM	#5
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Hi, I think, the threaded rod is part of a clamp and the 'breech plug' the metal pad found on such systems. Regards, Norman.

18th April 2009, 02:04 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,089	Thank you, gentlemen, for remarking on this piece. Oh brother, I didn't even notice the threaded plug until you pointed it out. I assumed it was a front loader. As a breech loader, is it possible this was a true weapon vs signal cannon or rope thrower? Is it thick enough? Is it more likely that if a weapon, it would have been on a swivel vs it's stationary housing? Likewise, as the barrel appears to be of two pieces, does this make it an unlikely weapon? Oppinions?

19th April 2009, 03:46 AM	#8
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,089	Thanks Manuel, and good point. Any guesses as to time period? Do you feel this could have been a small deck gun or more likely a signaler/line thrower? Thanks- Mark

19th April 2009, 04:55 AM	#10
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,089	Thanks. I suspected as much due to the completely straight barrel and two-piece assembly. Still an interesting piece...