keris sajen majapahit marks

[Pusaka]

Has anyone made a study of the marks often seen on these blades some call fingerprints. I am speaking of the deliberate indentations made along the blade of such keris. Specifically I want to know if the number of indentations follows numeric rules (like the luk in keris) such as always being an odd number or if some numbers are seen more then others such a 3 or 7 also if older ones tend to have a number that differs from later ones eg fewer or more indents.

The oldest wavy sajen keris I have seen have all been 3 luk blades, would be interesting to see if the oldest straight bladed keris sajen tend to have three indents along the length of the blade.

I know some are going to say these indents are the result of shrinkage whilst cooling, I personally don't believe that, I think they are deliberate markings.

[A. G. Maisey]

This thread may be of interest:-

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=PIJIT

[David]

Ha, i was just going to link that post for Pusaka, Alan. You beat me to the punch…or rather "picit"…

[Pusaka]

I read it before I posted But it does not answer my question about a numerical study of these markings, I think they are blessing markings and are a permanent feature of a blessing that has taken place (the real ones, not the faked ones).

[David]

Well, i suppose one could call them "blessing markings". I have always considered the act to be one way in which the empu "charges" the keris. I have a few of these which i am pretty sure are the real deal. None of them are keris sajen btw, but they are fairly early talismanic blades. One has 3 imprints (2 on on side and one on the other). I also have one with 5 which all seem to have been pressed from the same side. I think that with most things relating to keris the key factor in that the number of imprints will be odd just as with the number of luk. But yes, this is indeed, most probably a spiritual/magickal act by the empu. It may not serve the same purpose or be meant to deliver the same exact energy into the blade in each and every case though. I would think that the exact nature/purpose of the act will probably not be discernible at this point in time however.

[Pusaka]

I call them blessing marks just for want of a better word but they are actually produced during the process of transforming a keris from a dead keris to an alive keris, or if you prefer a charged keris.

The esoteric method of doing this is still known to some and is a very secret thing if you are passed this information.

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

I call them blessing marks just for want of a better word but they are actually produced during the process of transforming a keris from a dead keris to an alive keris, or if you prefer a charged keris.

Keris Picit are a relatively rare thing to encounter and there are a great many keris that have been produced over that ages that have been forged without such marks that i am sure were considered to be "alive" by their makers so obviously pressing one's fingers into hot molten iron was not the only method for imbuing spirit into a blade.

Originally Posted by Pusaka

The esoteric method of doing this is still known to some and is a very secret thing if you are passed this information.

Unless you have some direct knowledge of this you would like to share i will remain of the mind "perhaps/perhaps not". I certainly cannot say that i have seen any recently made keris picit created by any modern day empu (a rather dwindling company to be sure) that lay claim to it being a "living" keris. What i have seen produced by those few who lay claim to the title of empu are more along the the lines of modern form artistic pieces which may well be imbued with "spirit", but are not the more archaic forms of picit or sajen keris. Talismanic keris such as the picit were created to serve very specific purposes in the lives of their caretakers, purposes that are perhaps less needed in today's modern Indonesian society. Talismanic keris are most often not particularly "pretty" things, at least not in the usually accepted guidelines of what makes a "good" keris, which could be why modern empus are not usually asked to make them. I can only speculate, but i would image that the exact formula of prayer, meditation, fasting, work days of the week and numerical values that may have been employed to create a keris picit changed somewhat for each specific purpose and person that keris was being devised for so i see little practical use in alluding to "THE" esoteric method that may have been used to produce these very interesting blades, especially since these secrets will undoubtably never be shared here even if they are still known.

[Pusaka]

I did not mean that in order to make a keris alive you need to stick your fingers into molten metal but the method of making a keris come alive involves pinching the keris blade between thumb and index finger a particular number of times along the length of the blade whilst reciting mantra.
This is done over a period of a specific number of days after which the kris is said to be alive. I cant be more specific than that as am not allowed, but you will understand the significance of the number of indents.

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

I did not mean that in order to make a keris alive you need to stick your fingers into molten metal but the method of making a keris come alive involves pinching the keris blade between thumb and index finger a particular number of times along the length of the blade whilst reciting mantra.

Pusaka, in order to leave an imprint in the blade with your fingers the iron of the blade would indeed need to be very, very hot and still soft (i concede that "molten" may have been the wrong word). It is, of course, possible that this same process is done to imbue spirit in cooled non-picit blades, but there would be no imprint from the process there as evidence.

Originally Posted by Pusaka

This is done over a period of a specific number of days after which the kris is said to be alive. I cant be more specific than that as am not allowed, but you will understand the significance of the number of indents.

Forgive me, i was not aware that perhaps one of the greatest secrets of the ancient keris making world had been shared with you. I, for one, would certainly not suggest that you ever break such a sacred vow.

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by David

Forgive me, i was not aware that perhaps one of the greatest secrets of the ancient keris making world had been shared with you. I, for one, would certainly not suggest that you ever break such a sacred vow.

Haha...no not just me, I would say there are a number of people in Indonesia that know this, none outside the Silat circle and maybe traditional empu tho

who knows maybe another on here, might come forward, that would be shocking wouldn't it

[Rick]

Right:
I'd tell you but then I'd have to kill you .

[Rick]

I cannot count the number of times since this subforum was founded that people have passed through claiming the knowledge that you claim, my friend .
If it is something that cannot be shared then it is something we cannot discuss; can we ?

So, secret knowledge aside; can we please move on .

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by Rick

I cannot count the number of times since this subforum was founded that people have passed through claiming the knowledge that you claim, my friend .
If it is something that cannot be shared then it is something we cannot discuss; can we ?

So, secret knowledge aside; can we please move on .

Surly you have heard of the Freemasons right, well in silat they have secrets too simple as that Ask a Freemason to show you the handshake or the lost word...he wont do it!

Anyway onwards and upwards, my purpose of making this thread is to establish if these keris markings follow numeric patterns, old vs newer, odd/even, 3,5,7,9 who knows maybe even numbers too.

[A. G. Maisey]

Comment withdrawn.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Anyway onwards and upwards, my purpose of making this thread is to establish if these keris markings follow numeric patterns, old vs newer, odd/even, 3,5,7,9 who knows maybe even numbers too.

Absolutely, onward and upward .

[Pusaka]

The supposed 250 year old 32 paged (interesting number) keris manuscript depicts the Taming sari to have been a keris Picit. Have not read much about the legends surrounding this keris to know if it is consistently depicted as such.
The manuscript goes into detail about such markings but from a Sufi perspective or at least a Sufi interpretation of such markings.

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

The supposed 250 year old 32 paged (interesting number) keris manuscript depicts the Taming sari to have been a keris Picit. Have not read much about the legends surrounding this keris to know if it is consistently depicted as such.
The manuscript goes into detail about such markings but from a Sufi perspective or at least a Sufi interpretation of such markings.

Well, onward perhaps, but i'm not convinced about upwards. Taming Sari is a keris steeped in legend so if the goal of your enquiry is to find out facts about keris picit this might not be the best path for you.
BTW, Taming Sari is supposedly part of the Perak royal regalia and that keris at least is not a keris picit. It would probably not be consistent to legend for Taming Sari to be keris picit since the legends tend to speak of it as a martial weapon, not a talismanic one. I have never seen a keris picit that was meant for or would be suitable for martial activity. They are purely talismanic blades.

[Pusaka]

You failed to understand/interpret the diagram on the left I take it then

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

You failed to understand/interpret the diagram on the left I take it then

Perhaps you can tell us how you interpret it. Unfortunately i don't read the language. Perhaps you can give us an accurate translation since it seems you do.
Of course, simply because a document exists, even one that is 250 years old, that claims to diagram Taming Sari does not mean that it is an accurate description of the actual blade which is supposed to be much older than that in origin. I also wonder about the value of Sufi interpretations about a Mojopahit blade that came out of Hindu cultural context.
BTW, here are images of the blade that in held with the Perak regalia. There seems to be at least some legitimate provenance regarding its lineage, though there are some gaps and questions to be sure. Separating fact from fiction in these cases is always a challenge, often an impossible one.
You might want to actually read up on Taming Sari since you admit that you are not really up on the legends. Interesting story…

[Pusaka]

David

I cant read it either, but the diagram is enough.

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

David

I cant read it either, but the diagram is enough.

Hmmm…and what do you think that diagram is telling you?

[David]

BTW, for those who don't read the language i put the photo caption through Google Translator and then searched out some of the words that didn't translate at first until i had the most coherent interpretation i could get.
Investigators and collecting artifacts related to the history of the Malay and Islamic Heritage Gallery Ancestors, in Seremban, Negeri Sembilan, Wan Ahmad Arshad show documents that contains Taming Sari keris sketch. Wan Ahmad alleges save manuscripts believed to be 250 years old, tells the story of Taming Sari keris, once said to support the theory of the existence of Hang Tuah. 32 manuscript pages in Arabic and old Malay helped attract European buyers, rather than a collection of artifacts obtained in Terengganu, about three months ago. The manuscript also makes specific reference to the Hang Tuah, Taming Sari keris and keris of Hang Jebat.
I would have a much harder time translating the old Malay and Arabic used in the diagrams themselves, but i am not convinced that what we are looking at displays keris picit at all. The series of circles and lines on these drawings could be meant to be pamor patterns or it might be some kind os mystical energy flow chart. The sketch on the left reminds me of chakras. But there is nothing there that seems to indicate that this blade is supposed to have been keris picit.

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by David

The series of circles and lines on these drawings could be meant to be pamor patterns or it might be some kind os mystical energy flow chart. The sketch on the left reminds me of chakras. But there is nothing there that seems to indicate that this blade is supposed to have been keris picit.

Sounds good to me, interesting its wrote in part Malay, I was not aware of that.

http://kemuningwarisan.blogspot.co.u...ttani-dlm.html

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Anyway onwards and upwards, my purpose of making this thread is to establish if these keris markings follow numeric patterns, old vs newer, odd/even, 3,5,7,9 who knows maybe even numbers too.

I am afraid i do not understand the purpose of your last link. It would also be helpful if you stuck to links in English unless you are willing to provide a translation for them. None of this seems to have anything to do with your self-proclaimed purpose for this thread. What exactly are we talking about anyway? What is it that you would like to find out here?

[Gavin Nugent]

Another post from the archives...

Does anyone know is a complete English translation of this document has been made?

[David]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

Another post from the archives...

Does anyone know is a complete English translation of this document has been made?

I'm not sure which document you are referring to, the one shown in post #16 or what Pusaka linked to in post #23.
And i guess these aren't so much documents as diagrams. The link in #23 says the diagram writing is in Siamese so i presume they mean Thai. The diagram in #16 may well be Thai as well. Not sure if we have anyone on board here who is fluent in Thai.

[Gavin Nugent]

#16 David, I consider it a document, the other a weblink.

[David]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

#16 David, I consider it a document, the other a weblink.

Well, i'm not sure if that is Thai or not written on those diagrams, but to my eye i would say that even if i knew the language, that particular image would not make it easy to translate what is written there. So besides finding someone who knows the language i would say they would probably need a better image work from for a complete translation.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by David

Well, i'm not sure if that is Thai or not written on those diagrams, but to my eye i would say that even if i knew the language, that particular image would not make it easy to translate what is written there. So besides finding someone who knows the language i would say they would probably need a better image work from for a complete translation.

David, given that the member posting notes Sufi interpretation and the script does not look Thai, I'd guess that it was old Arabic.

Whilst I understand the complexities you note if one was to present the single image supplied in the article to the forum, I am simply curious to know if anyone within the forum, or external readers who may want to get in touch, know if a translation of the manuscript in full has been completed, or if it is being worked upon?

[David]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

David, given that the member posting notes Sufi interpretation and the script does not look Thai, I'd guess that it was old Arabic.

Whilst I understand the complexities you note if one was to present the single image supplied in the article to the forum, I am simply curious to know if anyone within the forum, or external readers who may want to get in touch, know if a translation of the manuscript in full has been completed, or if it is being worked upon?

Yes, actually the text off to the side talks about it being in Arabic and Old Malay.
Hopefully somebody knows more about this manuscript. Pusaka didn't mention where he sourced the image from at the time.