Seeking help to identify a blade!

MeleeTiger · 5th November 2014, 09:19 PM

I purchased this old blade from my local pawn shop some years back and have been trying to get an idea of where it's from ever since,
I believe he said that it was brought back here by a soldier who had been stationed in Africa but that's kind of a vague deal when you consider on big and varied the country is.
I came here to this community after some more searching and thought that just maybe I'd find someone who could give
me a better idea of where it's from and before anyone asks, no I'm not looking to sell it or any other piece of my collection but I would like some peace of mind relating to it's origins.
These photos were taken not long after I purchased the item, if they're not
any good for getting an understanding of the piece I can take some new ones
to try and get a better image of it for identification purposes.
It's clearly hand forged if the tang is anything to go by but has no edge so
I'm thinking it was more decorative or ceremonial in design rather than function?

LJ · 6th November 2014, 04:21 PM

The blade looks very red: is it made of copper?

I could be wrong, but ... My first thought on seeing the decoration on the blade is that it is from Eastern Congo or northern Angola. If the blade IS copper, it might help to narrow it down.

Tim Simmons · 6th November 2014, 05:59 PM

That is a very nice old blade and scabbard from Sudan.

MeleeTiger · 6th November 2014, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LJ

The blade looks very red: is it made of copper?

I could be wrong, but ... My first thought on seeing the decoration on the blade is that it is from Eastern Congo or northern Angola. If the blade IS copper, it might help to narrow it down.

No it's not copper, the flash must of been too bright and picked up the corrosion more than it should have.
It's a silvery nickel colour with tarnish.

Battara · 7th November 2014, 01:52 AM

Detlef, it does look Sudanese, doesn't it?

Shakethetrees · 7th November 2014, 03:45 AM

The scabbard is definitely Sudanese. The blade looks like it could be a native made blade for a kaskara, except for the chiseled decoration.

Sajen · 7th November 2014, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Detlef, it does look Sudanese, doesn't it?

Hello Jose,

it's not mine blade and until now I haven't comment but agree with you!

Regards,
Detlef

spiral · 7th November 2014, 10:40 AM

Is it one of those Kaskara that usually have a baby Nile crocodile for the hilt?

spiral

Tim Simmons · 7th November 2014, 05:56 PM

Not Kaskara. More a short sword like this example. Which I would think from much further south but you can see how the form has morphed.
http://southernsudan.prm.ox.ac.uk/de...39.7.109_a.jpg

LJ · 7th November 2014, 07:27 PM

I stand (or rather, sit) corrected ! I've not seen a Sudanese dagger with a decorated blade like this, but that's down to me not seeing enough Sudanese daggers ... and I'll know to look out for them in future.

Surely one of the great benefits of a forum like this one is that everybody can learn from the experience of others.

MeleeTiger · 7th November 2014, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LJ

I stand (or rather, sit) corrected ! I've not seen a Sudanese dagger with a decorated blade like this, but that's down to me not seeing enough Sudanese daggers ... and I'll know to look out for them in future.

Surely one of the great benefits of a forum like this one is that everybody can learn from the experience of others.

Indeed it is!

MeleeTiger · 7th November 2014, 08:07 PM

I went and took some new photos last night though still images be they with or without flash don't seem to catch it right as it's either too much light or too little where as the videos I've taken show the nickel like colour better than the photos do, sadly from what I understand it's not acceptable to post links to second party hosting sites for the sake of images going down.
The photo(s) without flash were able to catch the more silvery nature better than the ones with flash I find, though the high flash does still show it with bright reflection coming off the blade.
The wood used for the handle and scabbard core seems to have a red colour to it though the handle has some black paint or otherwise coating on it, I think the photos were able to catch it.

MeleeTiger · 14th November 2014, 05:44 AM

Found a site with images of "Sudan Knives" that had very similar markings and scabbard design, I know I'm not supposed to link to off site stuff so I screen caped and pasted the images together instead to attach it here.
Edit: Don't know why the image I mentioned above didn't show, but it should now.

Shakethetrees · 14th November 2014, 03:07 PM

I think the grip is throwing everyone off.

The blade tang does not appear to have been ever peened over to permanently lock everything together. It extends a good bit past where it should be.

I believe the blade and scabbard began life together, but the grip is from something else. This marriage might have been consummated fifty years ago in a souk or an antique shop. It was a marriage of convenience!

spiral · 14th November 2014, 03:19 PM

As I said earlier , to me it looks like the sort of thing that had a baby crocodile as a hilt, Or sometimes a leg...

spiral

MeleeTiger · 15th November 2014, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

I think the grip is throwing everyone off.

The blade tang does not appear to have been ever peened over to permanently lock everything together. It extends a good bit past where it should be.

I believe the blade and scabbard began life together, but the grip is from something else. This marriage might have been consummated fifty years ago in a souk or an antique shop. It was a marriage of convenience!

Indeed, I never really put much faith in the grip but that's what it came with so I included it in the photos especially since it seemed to be made of the same wood as the scabbard core beneath the crocodile hide.

Gavin Nugent · 15th November 2014, 01:48 AM

With the tang length seen protruding past the pommel area and given the base of the hilt shape I wonder if the pommel once looked like this one below but also with the added pommel spike.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=rhino+sudan

I suggest this because I also have a short sword length example with a Rhino horn hilt and similar markings but with the pommel spike/protrusion as seen on other types.

Gavin

5th November 2014, 09:19 PM	#1
MeleeTiger Member Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 6	Seeking help to identify a blade! I purchased this old blade from my local pawn shop some years back and have been trying to get an idea of where it's from ever since, I believe he said that it was brought back here by a soldier who had been stationed in Africa but that's kind of a vague deal when you consider on big and varied the country is. I came here to this community after some more searching and thought that just maybe I'd find someone who could give me a better idea of where it's from and before anyone asks, no I'm not looking to sell it or any other piece of my collection but I would like some peace of mind relating to it's origins. These photos were taken not long after I purchased the item, if they're not any good for getting an understanding of the piece I can take some new ones to try and get a better image of it for identification purposes. It's clearly hand forged if the tang is anything to go by but has no edge so I'm thinking it was more decorative or ceremonial in design rather than function? Attached Images

7th November 2014, 08:07 PM	#12
MeleeTiger Member Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 6	I went and took some new photos last night though still images be they with or without flash don't seem to catch it right as it's either too much light or too little where as the videos I've taken show the nickel like colour better than the photos do, sadly from what I understand it's not acceptable to post links to second party hosting sites for the sake of images going down. The photo(s) without flash were able to catch the more silvery nature better than the ones with flash I find, though the high flash does still show it with bright reflection coming off the blade. The wood used for the handle and scabbard core seems to have a red colour to it though the handle has some black paint or otherwise coating on it, I think the photos were able to catch it. Attached Images

14th November 2014, 05:44 AM	#13
MeleeTiger Member Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 6	Found a site with images of "Sudan Knives" that had very similar markings and scabbard design, I know I'm not supposed to link to off site stuff so I screen caped and pasted the images together instead to attach it here. Edit: Don't know why the image I mentioned above didn't show, but it should now. Attached Images Last edited by MeleeTiger; 15th November 2014 at 12:11 AM.

6th November 2014, 04:21 PM	#2
LJ Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 93	The blade looks very red: is it made of copper? I could be wrong, but ... My first thought on seeing the decoration on the blade is that it is from Eastern Congo or northern Angola. If the blade IS copper, it might help to narrow it down.

6th November 2014, 05:59 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	That is a very nice old blade and scabbard from Sudan.

7th November 2014, 01:52 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Detlef, it does look Sudanese, doesn't it?

7th November 2014, 03:45 AM	#6
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	The scabbard is definitely Sudanese. The blade looks like it could be a native made blade for a kaskara, except for the chiseled decoration.

7th November 2014, 10:40 AM	#8
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Is it one of those Kaskara that usually have a baby Nile crocodile for the hilt? spiral

7th November 2014, 05:56 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Not Kaskara. More a short sword like this example. Which I would think from much further south but you can see how the form has morphed. http://southernsudan.prm.ox.ac.uk/de...39.7.109_a.jpg

7th November 2014, 07:27 PM	#10
LJ Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 93	I stand (or rather, sit) corrected ! I've not seen a Sudanese dagger with a decorated blade like this, but that's down to me not seeing enough Sudanese daggers ... and I'll know to look out for them in future. Surely one of the great benefits of a forum like this one is that everybody can learn from the experience of others.

14th November 2014, 03:07 PM	#14
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	I think the grip is throwing everyone off. The blade tang does not appear to have been ever peened over to permanently lock everything together. It extends a good bit past where it should be. I believe the blade and scabbard began life together, but the grip is from something else. This marriage might have been consummated fifty years ago in a souk or an antique shop. It was a marriage of convenience!

14th November 2014, 03:19 PM	#15
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	As I said earlier , to me it looks like the sort of thing that had a baby crocodile as a hilt, Or sometimes a leg... spiral

15th November 2014, 01:48 AM	#17
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	With the tang length seen protruding past the pommel area and given the base of the hilt shape I wonder if the pommel once looked like this one below but also with the added pommel spike. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=rhino+sudan I suggest this because I also have a short sword length example with a Rhino horn hilt and similar markings but with the pommel spike/protrusion as seen on other types. Gavin