A dha a day.

drdavid · 26th July 2006, 07:06 AM

Hi all
my dha collection grows daily. I would be interested in the experts' thoughts on the origins of this one. I am not sure about the Burmese attribution but what do I know. http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI....d=1&sspagename

DrD

Ian · 26th July 2006, 07:38 AM

Hi DrD:

I think this one may be Thai rather than Burmese, just on the shape of the blade tip which is a recognized Thai style.

The hilt and scabbard seem to have been covered with black pitch or a similar material which has worn off partly with time and use, suggesting that this one may have some age -- 19th C seems about right.

Ian.

PUFF · 26th July 2006, 11:47 AM

Me too, have a feeling of Thai rather than Burmese origin. There 's no photo for tip detail. But "Hua Bua" (lotus tip) or "Hua LukKai" (chicken tip) tip profile usually associated with central Thailand origin. The handle/blade ratio also fit average value of Thai's. The handle seems to be made of giant rattan. Some parts were missing. If you can take the handle off and take some pictures of the tang, tang thickness might help for its age ID.

RhysMichael · 26th July 2006, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drdavid

Hi all
my dha collection grows daily.

OH NO ... You didn't read the surgeon generals warning that dha could be addictive. Now it seems you are a fellow junkie

I cannot add anything to what Ian said except to add that I think this one will clean up nicely. A good find. This tip style would be Hua Pla Lod or Hua Bua the two are hard for me to tell apart. Someone else here I am sure can tell you which.

http://www.cozun.com/images/New%20Bl...0names%20B.jpg

drdavid · 27th July 2006, 01:07 PM

Hi Puff and RhysMichael
I am getting a confused. Puff you say the tip may be Hua Bau or Hua LukKai, and Rhys you say Hua Bau or Hua Pla Lod. The pics on the link you give Rhys look like Hua Bau or Hua Pla Lod would be correct , the Dha research site calls similar tips spatulate or spear tip (also translated as Hua Bau). To me spatulate looks too rounded and spear tip possibly too pointed. So could someone clear up Hua Bau, Hua LukKai and Hau Pla Lod for me (just a little)
cheers
DrD

Mark · 27th July 2006, 02:26 PM

Hua bua actually is not synonymous with "spatulate" as I use the latter term. Hua bua has a very small upturned blip at the tip. You need to look closely at the photo on my glossary page & looking at the shadows helps spot it.

"Spatulate," as I use the term, refers to a tip that is completely rounded. The problem is that a hua bua tip can lose the blip trhough wear and/or sharpening. It could well be that what I distinguish as spatulate is actually a worn-down hua bua.

Hua lu guy (lukkai) refers to the tip which has a down-turned back edge, giving the effect of an up-side-down blade (the downward sweep of the back edge is greater than the upward sweep of the keen edge).

And now I'm forgetting what hua pla lod is.

From the context its spatulate.

RhysMichael · 27th July 2006, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drdavid

Hi Puff and RhysMichael
I am getting a confused. Puff you say the tip may be Hua Bau or Hua LukKai, and Rhys you say Hua Bau or Hua Pla Lod. The pics on the link you give Rhys look like Hua Bau or Hua Pla Lod would be correct , the Dha research site calls similar tips spatulate or spear tip (also translated as Hua Bau). To me spatulate looks too rounded and spear tip possibly too pointed. So could someone clear up Hua Bau, Hua LukKai and Hau Pla Lod for me (just a little)
cheers
DrD

Puff is the "man on the ground" so to speak. Anything I add in is filtered by language differences ( if you take away a couple of dha terms I know zero Thai ) and thousands of miles. One of the frustrating yet fascinating things about these swords is how little is printed in english on them . Also we find there are often many terms used by different groups that to us seem conflicting. So I would defer to Puff to know better which is correct.

PUFF · 27th July 2006, 05:13 PM

PlaLod is a kind of fish, Mastacembelus sp.
These are example of Dahb Hua PlaLod...

The upper one is older, Ayuthaya period. And the lower one is Rattanakosin, evolved in some degree. Hua PlaLod described a spatulate tip with the point 's not exactly at the middle (asymetrical tip curvature). And in most case, the point 's not very pointy.

This one is an example of Dahb Hua LukKai, Rattanakosin period.

It 's basicaly spatulate, big round tip with a little triangular beak, looks similar to Hua LukKai (chicken 's head). The little triangular tip could be slightly to the top, to the bottom or exactly at the middle.

We named this one as Hua Toh, just different from CoZun 's page.

And this is Bua (lotus). Dahb Hua Bua means lotus tip, which means spatulate tip with a big triangular pointy tip at the very middle of the tip curve.

RhysMichael · 27th July 2006, 05:26 PM

A great description
Thanks again Puff

Andrew · 27th July 2006, 08:42 PM

Puff, you are the man! Thank you again for sharing your knowlege with us.

As most of us know, simply speaking the language is not usually enough to be of much help if the speaker isn't a collector or student of arms/armour. My Thai friends all look at me with puzzlement when I ask the questions you've so generously answered.

If you ever find yourself in Florida, USA, please let me know.

drdavid · 28th July 2006, 09:27 AM

Thanks everyone for your help with this. Puff, great explanation, a picture is certainly worth a thousand words in this case (and you know your fish). Unfortunately I could not get the link to Thai blades to work, it asks for a log in, so will need to get registered and so on. Should I assume that these names really only apply to Thai dahb? I will certainly measure up the tang thickness when this arrives and ask more questions.
DrD

PUFF · 28th July 2006, 11:09 AM

http://thaiblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1854 requires to be a member. I would suggest you to be a member. The thread contains many worthy pictures

Titus Pullo · 28th July 2006, 07:32 PM

It reminds me of this blade.

PUFF · 29th July 2006, 07:56 AM

Hi Titus Pullo, I 'm very interested in your source. The figure legend 's "Cut-off head Dahbs are for using with a buckler or rectangular shields". It is exactly the same with a note, attached with a cut-off head Dahb found in one of the armory.

I learned from Khun ParinYa that, when siamese go into a battle field as an army formation, each unit has to use a specific Dahb, according to the unit fighting style. Dahb and buckler fighting 's not any Dahb with a buckler. But a specific Dahb design for using with a buckler. Dual weilding style 's not a fighting with any two Dahb. But the style will be at its best with a primary Dahb and a secondary off-hand Dahb.

RhysMichael · 29th July 2006, 02:39 PM

Puff I think that is from this site

http://www.usmta.com/weapons-blades.htm

Andrew · 29th July 2006, 04:21 PM

Puff, any chance you could translate the other captions from that page for us? Any editorial comments you have would be welcome as well.

Mark · 29th July 2006, 07:57 PM

This page was translated a while back by Dan, with some input from Ruel (don't know where Ruel got his translation): http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002355.html

ariel · 29th July 2006, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Bowditch

This page was translated a while back by Dan, with some input from Ruel (don't know where Ruel got his translation): http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002355.html

If that was the source, I would very much like Puff to re-translate the page and provide comments.

Titus Pullo · 30th July 2006, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PUFF

Hi Titus Pullo, I 'm very interested in your source. The figure legend 's "Cut-off head Dahbs are for using with a buckler or rectangular shields". It is exactly the same with a note, attached with a cut-off head Dahb found in one of the armory.

I learned from Khun ParinYa that, when siamese go into a battle field as an army formation, each unit has to use a specific Dahb, according to the unit fighting style. Dahb and buckler fighting 's not any Dahb with a buckler. But a specific Dahb design for using with a buckler. Dual weilding style 's not a fighting with any two Dahb. But the style will be at its best with a primary Dahb and a secondary off-hand Dahb.

Puff, that is very interesting, what you have described. I thought there was only a few ways to use swords, spears and bucklers. I read somewhere that because the Thai put standard on the way the way they fight, anyone who came up with a new techniques must prove it worthiness in a dual. Thai swords maybe short but they are deadly. Being shorts allows the user to get in close and make the hacking and stabing much easier in a crowded place or a tight formation. This is the case as the Gauls found out when fighting the Romans. The Gaul swords were long so it was more difficult to hack at the Romans in a tight formation, and the Romans were able to hack and stab many Gauls. Their swords have shorter center of gravity and a bit more mass which allows for maximum hacking and thrusting ability. They were able to get close to the belly with a shield protecting the head and the body and stab the Gauls in the guts. Ofcourse it was a contributing factor to Julius Ceaser's victory over the Gauls, and plus he was a brilliant general.

Anyway, here is the link that you are interested in. It's the same one as the one above. http://www.usmta.com/thai-weapons.htm

PUFF · 31st July 2006, 10:27 AM

The content on the page 's more or less a picture book quality (A-Apple, B-Boy, C-Cat

). I think Khun Santi translated fairly well. There are very little to be added.

Pic1: Kris (Underneath says: Malayu double edged, curve blade, sharp point.)
--- Your guys know better than me

Pic2: Darb Loh, Darb Dang, Darb Kaen
Darb = sword
Loh, Dang, Kaen = diff kind of handheld (arm-held?)protective sheild (as in pic 13, 14 and 15)
I guess the pic suggests that it's the sword to be used with these sheild. (Which does NOT make sense to me. Any sword can be use like that. . .(It's un-necessary and mis-leading)
--- From their looks, any Dahb looks the same. In fact, their construction are different. Some are good with buckler and some are good with rectangular shield. The drawing do not represent anything but a regular Dahb.

Pic3: When I click to get the bigger pic, there is no text showed. But it's just a decorated sword, nothing special. Lot of them show in the National Museum in Bangkok. If I have the digicam, and if I have time, I intend to go there and take few pic. . .Will get you some.

Pic4: Mead Pok (Underneath says: Handle and scabbard are "cover" with Silver)
Mead = knife
Pok = carry

Pic5: Two handed sword OR Darb Kad Lang
Kad Land = Carry on your back.
Kinda suggest that generally people carry this sword on their back, two at a time. And when they use it, they're using two of them at the same time. (Thus "Two handed")

Actually there's NO DIFF btw normal darb and this Darb Kad Lang, except that the later got the string so that it could be hanged on you shoulder.

I know two guys who really GOOD at these two handed sword fighting. I know a bit.

--- Again, the drawing do not include any a detail, specific for dual weilding Dahb.

Pic6: Ca-Tha
"Ca" as in Catalist
"Tha" as in Matha
You have it too, too bad I don't know what you call in Eng.
It's a "stick" that normally the King carry to show his supream power. Like a cane but shorter, probably around 15."

Garuda on the head is only for our King, not for normal people. (Like Dragon for Chinese.)

--- A cane, with Garuda (the king 's symbol) figure on the top. Another dressing weapon.

Pic7: Darb Kad Lang Sam-Rab MaeTap
Sam-Rab = for
Mae = Mother (litterally)
Tap = Battalion, Army
So, Mae Tap is head of the army force in particular combat/war.

Same as pic5.
Underneath says: handle and scabbard in Gold and Silver.

Again, nothing special about this sword, except with string so that it can be hanged on your shoulder, and decorated for the powerful guy.

Pic8: Darb Chaloey
Chaloey = Prisoner of War.

Probably the poor made sword?

Pic9: Darb Hua Tad
Hua = head
Tad = cut
So, basicly it's a truncated darb. That's all.
(Imagine the REVERSE Tanto blade.)
The text also suggests that it's to be used with Loh, Dang and Kaen.

Pic10: Pra-Sang-Darb Karb Kai
Pra- Sang-Darb is the way we call sword of the king.
Karb = carry it with your mounth.
Kai = Fort

It's a legend that our King Naresuan (of Ayuthaya Dynasty) karb this sword while he's climbing up the ladder to enter the Burmese fort. And finally he won that war. This is taught in primary school. But really nobody ever seen that sword. . .thispic is of imaginary.
--- The real one was lost during Ayuthaya 's second sack. There is a reconstructed one, made in the very early of Rattanakosin, supposed to be a very historical accurate one.

Pic11: Pra-Sang-Krabi (Underneath says: Gold hand-guard with decorated tassel)
Karbi is generally slim, two egded, a bit straigt. The one normally carry by the army in their full uniform.
Pra-Sang-Krabi = King's Krabi.
--- In this context, Krabi means sabre-like sword.

Pic12: Dang
Protective sheild, generally made of dried water buffolo or cow hide.

Pic13: Krieng Pong-Gun Ar-Vut
Krieng = equipment
Pong-Gun = protect
Ar-Vut = Weapon

Pic14: Same as pic13, but suggests that the round one is used on hourse back; the rectangularone is used on ground combat.

Pic15: Kaen

NOTE: From what I know, the round one is called Loh?
The rectangular is called Kaen.

--- In the old day, the round buckler called Kaen and rectangular one has many names, generally called Loh. Just less than 100 ago, the names were used interchangly

Pic16: Nah-Mai
Nah = face (litterally)
Mai = wood
NahMai = Crossbow . . . don't ask why
(Underneath is a brief description of how to make one, cross two pieces of wood, route a slot, add the trigger.)

Pic17: ThaNu and Louk ThaNu
ThaNu = bow
Louk = son, daughter (litterally)
Louk ThaNu = arrow. . .make sense, right?

Pic18: Pra-Sang-Peoun
Peoun = gun, musket
--- Pra-Sang = royal weapon. So, this is king 's musket.

Pic19: TohMorn
Generally 3 headed spear.
--- And also 2 heads spear, (triden and ..... biden

)

Pic20: Tuan
Same as Spear in the next pic, but slimer.
--- Generally, longer, for mounted unit (horse or elephant)

Pic21: Can't read, text not clear.
Seems like, a Tuan with the scabbard.
--- An error was made during photo preparation. The scabbard 's belong to Tuan (its left picture). The text 's Plong, a quarterstaff .

Pic21: Clickable but no show bigger pic.
But it's almost the same as Gnoaw in next pic22. Except that it has a little hook under the blade; I guess this hook is used to control the elephant.

Pic22: Gnoaw.
---Poled sword, similar to Japanese naginata.

My master says this is the ultimate weapon, before one learn how to use gnoaw, he must know how to use all other weapon first.

Pic23: Hok = spear

Pic24: Hok Sad
Sad = throw.

Titus Pullo · 1st August 2006, 05:49 AM

Thanks PUFF for the translation. We appreate it a lot!

drdavid · 8th August 2006, 10:19 AM

Hi all, herewith as suggested by Puff pictures and dimensions of tang on this piece. Hopefully you might be able to suggest an age. Also Puff you suggested that it was missing some pieces, what would you suggest is missing.
The tang is 115mm long, and 18mm wide and 8 mm thick at the junction with the blade. From the excellent advice provided earlier in the thread I can say up close the tip seems to be Hua LukKai
cheers
Drd

Ian · 9th August 2006, 06:33 AM

Puff:

While you are helping out Dr David, would you mind classifying the tip on this daab. I'm of several minds what to call it, and even after viewing your pictures I'm not sure.

Thanks.

Ian.

wilked aka Khun Deng · 9th August 2006, 12:08 PM

Puff, I too am interested in that tip. And thanks for the boost in my confidence that my translation wasn't too far off, you did, as Andrew mentioned, add much that wouldn't be apparent from just a literal translation.

My apologies for not contacting you while in Thailand, between serious computer problems and getting a house set-up in Lop Buri ... well next time I'll come more prepared I promise.

As for the pictures of the swords of at the national museum. About two years(?) ago Khun Jarunee, one of the curators there was kind enough to take them down and have them photographed for us. She put them in a data base program called ACDsee which I am unfamiliar with (but I got it to print). I've been meaning to get the provenance she supplied translated, but it is once again another project that has been put to the rear. I can't promise that it'll get done anytime soon as I left the disk at the house in Lop Buri. Ian has a copy though (hint hint).

Khun Dang

PUFF · 10th August 2006, 12:23 PM

I asked Khun Bancha about drdavid's blade tang. His suggestion is tang's style 's not old Ayuthaya. Could be 80-150 yo northern Thailand (Lumpang Utaradit or near by cities). The round/spatulated tang tip 's related to some nothern Thailand samples.

Khun Dang 's blade 's difinitly Hua LukKai while Ian 's blade 's something between Hua LukKai and Hua PlaLod. I would like to put this one in Hua LukKai since its little beak might be used in the same way with that of Dahb Hua LukKai, which, I heard from MA, used for jabbing (into opponent 's wrist or arm) and disable one's combat ability.

drdavid · 10th August 2006, 01:45 PM

Hi Puff
thanks for that. With my piece do you think it would have had a coin on the butt end (I have another which does and it looks like the same size hole to take a little nail in the centre of a coin)? Also is it likely to have had a spacer or metal collar near the hilt as the tang does not quite fit all the way into the hilt (I am pretty sure it is not just a blocked hole). Thanks again.
DrD

Ian · 10th August 2006, 02:02 PM

Puff:

Thanks for the help.

Ian.

cozun · 16th August 2006, 09:23 PM

Well, after all that input on this thread, I have to revise and update some of my own published information on my site.
Expect the offer to be slighly different and wider in the upcoming months (concerning blade shapes I believe).
For those who are interessted in Darbs made in the present days that is, not elder collection pieces (yet).

Anyway, Puff, I believe we should meet and have a chat together, if you're interessted.

Regards to all of you,
Serge from coZun

P.S. Special greetings to Khun Dan the Red and Mark Bowditch. I''ll write you guys soon.

Mark · 17th August 2006, 01:13 PM

Welcome aboard, Serge.

PUFF · 18th August 2006, 08:26 AM

Hi Serge, I 'm living just 30 minutes drive from you. But I 'm quite busy until mid of next month. Will call you then.

26th July 2006, 07:06 AM	#1
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 371	A dha a day. Hi all my dha collection grows daily. I would be interested in the experts' thoughts on the origins of this one. I am not sure about the Burmese attribution but what do I know. http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI....d=1&sspagename DrD Attached Images

27th July 2006, 01:07 PM	#5
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 371	Now I'm confused Hi Puff and RhysMichael I am getting a confused. Puff you say the tip may be Hua Bau or Hua LukKai, and Rhys you say Hua Bau or Hua Pla Lod. The pics on the link you give Rhys look like Hua Bau or Hua Pla Lod would be correct , the Dha research site calls similar tips spatulate or spear tip (also translated as Hua Bau). To me spatulate looks too rounded and spear tip possibly too pointed. So could someone clear up Hua Bau, Hua LukKai and Hau Pla Lod for me (just a little) cheers DrD

28th July 2006, 09:27 AM	#11
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 371	Thank you Thanks everyone for your help with this. Puff, great explanation, a picture is certainly worth a thousand words in this case (and you know your fish). Unfortunately I could not get the link to Thai blades to work, it asks for a log in, so will need to get registered and so on. Should I assume that these names really only apply to Thai dahb? I will certainly measure up the tang thickness when this arrives and ask more questions. DrD

29th July 2006, 07:56 AM	#14
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Hi Titus Pullo, I 'm very interested in your source. The figure legend 's "Cut-off head Dahbs are for using with a buckler or rectangular shields". It is exactly the same with a note, attached with a cut-off head Dahb found in one of the armory. I learned from Khun ParinYa that, when siamese go into a battle field as an army formation, each unit has to use a specific Dahb, according to the unit fighting style. Dahb and buckler fighting 's not any Dahb with a buckler. But a specific Dahb design for using with a buckler. Dual weilding style 's not a fighting with any two Dahb. But the style will be at its best with a primary Dahb and a secondary off-hand Dahb. Last edited by PUFF; 29th July 2006 at 08:10 AM.

31st July 2006, 10:27 AM	#20
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	The content on the page 's more or less a picture book quality (A-Apple, B-Boy, C-Cat ). I think Khun Santi translated fairly well. There are very little to be added. Pic1: Kris (Underneath says: Malayu double edged, curve blade, sharp point.) --- Your guys know better than me Pic2: Darb Loh, Darb Dang, Darb Kaen Darb = sword Loh, Dang, Kaen = diff kind of handheld (arm-held?)protective sheild (as in pic 13, 14 and 15) I guess the pic suggests that it's the sword to be used with these sheild. (Which does NOT make sense to me. Any sword can be use like that. . .(It's un-necessary and mis-leading) --- From their looks, any Dahb looks the same. In fact, their construction are different. Some are good with buckler and some are good with rectangular shield. The drawing do not represent anything but a regular Dahb. Pic3: When I click to get the bigger pic, there is no text showed. But it's just a decorated sword, nothing special. Lot of them show in the National Museum in Bangkok. If I have the digicam, and if I have time, I intend to go there and take few pic. . .Will get you some. Pic4: Mead Pok (Underneath says: Handle and scabbard are "cover" with Silver) Mead = knife Pok = carry Pic5: Two handed sword OR Darb Kad Lang Kad Land = Carry on your back. Kinda suggest that generally people carry this sword on their back, two at a time. And when they use it, they're using two of them at the same time. (Thus "Two handed") Actually there's NO DIFF btw normal darb and this Darb Kad Lang, except that the later got the string so that it could be hanged on you shoulder. I know two guys who really GOOD at these two handed sword fighting. I know a bit. --- Again, the drawing do not include any a detail, specific for dual weilding Dahb. Pic6: Ca-Tha "Ca" as in Catalist "Tha" as in Matha You have it too, too bad I don't know what you call in Eng. It's a "stick" that normally the King carry to show his supream power. Like a cane but shorter, probably around 15." Garuda on the head is only for our King, not for normal people. (Like Dragon for Chinese.) --- A cane, with Garuda (the king 's symbol) figure on the top. Another dressing weapon. Pic7: Darb Kad Lang Sam-Rab MaeTap Sam-Rab = for Mae = Mother (litterally) Tap = Battalion, Army So, Mae Tap is head of the army force in particular combat/war. Same as pic5. Underneath says: handle and scabbard in Gold and Silver. Again, nothing special about this sword, except with string so that it can be hanged on your shoulder, and decorated for the powerful guy. Pic8: Darb Chaloey Chaloey = Prisoner of War. Probably the poor made sword? Pic9: Darb Hua Tad Hua = head Tad = cut So, basicly it's a truncated darb. That's all. (Imagine the REVERSE Tanto blade.) The text also suggests that it's to be used with Loh, Dang and Kaen. Pic10: Pra-Sang-Darb Karb Kai Pra- Sang-Darb is the way we call sword of the king. Karb = carry it with your mounth. Kai = Fort It's a legend that our King Naresuan (of Ayuthaya Dynasty) karb this sword while he's climbing up the ladder to enter the Burmese fort. And finally he won that war. This is taught in primary school. But really nobody ever seen that sword. . .thispic is of imaginary. --- The real one was lost during Ayuthaya 's second sack. There is a reconstructed one, made in the very early of Rattanakosin, supposed to be a very historical accurate one. Pic11: Pra-Sang-Krabi (Underneath says: Gold hand-guard with decorated tassel) Karbi is generally slim, two egded, a bit straigt. The one normally carry by the army in their full uniform. Pra-Sang-Krabi = King's Krabi. --- In this context, Krabi means sabre-like sword. Pic12: Dang Protective sheild, generally made of dried water buffolo or cow hide. Pic13: Krieng Pong-Gun Ar-Vut Krieng = equipment Pong-Gun = protect Ar-Vut = Weapon Pic14: Same as pic13, but suggests that the round one is used on hourse back; the rectangularone is used on ground combat. Pic15: Kaen NOTE: From what I know, the round one is called Loh? The rectangular is called Kaen. --- In the old day, the round buckler called Kaen and rectangular one has many names, generally called Loh. Just less than 100 ago, the names were used interchangly Pic16: Nah-Mai Nah = face (litterally) Mai = wood NahMai = Crossbow . . . don't ask why (Underneath is a brief description of how to make one, cross two pieces of wood, route a slot, add the trigger.) Pic17: ThaNu and Louk ThaNu ThaNu = bow Louk = son, daughter (litterally) Louk ThaNu = arrow. . .make sense, right? Pic18: Pra-Sang-Peoun Peoun = gun, musket --- Pra-Sang = royal weapon. So, this is king 's musket. Pic19: TohMorn Generally 3 headed spear. --- And also 2 heads spear, (triden and ..... biden ) Pic20: Tuan Same as Spear in the next pic, but slimer. --- Generally, longer, for mounted unit (horse or elephant) Pic21: Can't read, text not clear. Seems like, a Tuan with the scabbard. --- An error was made during photo preparation. The scabbard 's belong to Tuan (its left picture). The text 's Plong, a quarterstaff . Pic21: Clickable but no show bigger pic. But it's almost the same as Gnoaw in next pic22. Except that it has a little hook under the blade; I guess this hook is used to control the elephant. Pic22: Gnoaw. ---Poled sword, similar to Japanese naginata. My master says this is the ultimate weapon, before one learn how to use gnoaw, he must know how to use all other weapon first. Pic23: Hok = spear Pic24: Hok Sad Sad = throw. Last edited by PUFF; 31st July 2006 at 11:36 AM.

26th July 2006, 07:38 AM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,203	Hi DrD: I think this one may be Thai rather than Burmese, just on the shape of the blade tip which is a recognized Thai style. The hilt and scabbard seem to have been covered with black pitch or a similar material which has worn off partly with time and use, suggesting that this one may have some age -- 19th C seems about right. Ian.

26th July 2006, 11:47 AM	#3
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Me too, have a feeling of Thai rather than Burmese origin. There 's no photo for tip detail. But "Hua Bua" (lotus tip) or "Hua LukKai" (chicken tip) tip profile usually associated with central Thailand origin. The handle/blade ratio also fit average value of Thai's. The handle seems to be made of giant rattan. Some parts were missing. If you can take the handle off and take some pictures of the tang, tang thickness might help for its age ID.

27th July 2006, 02:26 PM	#6
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Hua bua actually is not synonymous with "spatulate" as I use the latter term. Hua bua has a very small upturned blip at the tip. You need to look closely at the photo on my glossary page & looking at the shadows helps spot it. "Spatulate," as I use the term, refers to a tip that is completely rounded. The problem is that a hua bua tip can lose the blip trhough wear and/or sharpening. It could well be that what I distinguish as spatulate is actually a worn-down hua bua. Hua lu guy (lukkai) refers to the tip which has a down-turned back edge, giving the effect of an up-side-down blade (the downward sweep of the back edge is greater than the upward sweep of the keen edge). And now I'm forgetting what hua pla lod is. From the context its spatulate.

27th July 2006, 05:13 PM	#8
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	PlaLod is a kind of fish, Mastacembelus sp. These are example of Dahb Hua PlaLod... The upper one is older, Ayuthaya period. And the lower one is Rattanakosin, evolved in some degree. Hua PlaLod described a spatulate tip with the point 's not exactly at the middle (asymetrical tip curvature). And in most case, the point 's not very pointy. This one is an example of Dahb Hua LukKai, Rattanakosin period. It 's basicaly spatulate, big round tip with a little triangular beak, looks similar to Hua LukKai (chicken 's head). The little triangular tip could be slightly to the top, to the bottom or exactly at the middle. We named this one as Hua Toh, just different from CoZun 's page. And this is Bua (lotus). Dahb Hua Bua means lotus tip, which means spatulate tip with a big triangular pointy tip at the very middle of the tip curve.

27th July 2006, 05:26 PM	#9
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	A great description Thanks again Puff

27th July 2006, 08:42 PM	#10
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Puff, you are the man! Thank you again for sharing your knowlege with us. As most of us know, simply speaking the language is not usually enough to be of much help if the speaker isn't a collector or student of arms/armour. My Thai friends all look at me with puzzlement when I ask the questions you've so generously answered. If you ever find yourself in Florida, USA, please let me know.

28th July 2006, 11:09 AM	#12
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	http://thaiblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1854 requires to be a member. I would suggest you to be a member. The thread contains many worthy pictures

28th July 2006, 07:32 PM	#13
Titus Pullo Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 123	It reminds me of this blade.

29th July 2006, 02:39 PM	#15
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	Puff I think that is from this site http://www.usmta.com/weapons-blades.htm

29th July 2006, 04:21 PM	#16
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Puff, any chance you could translate the other captions from that page for us? Any editorial comments you have would be welcome as well.

29th July 2006, 07:57 PM	#17
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	This page was translated a while back by Dan, with some input from Ruel (don't know where Ruel got his translation): http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002355.html

1st August 2006, 05:49 AM	#21
Titus Pullo Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 123	Thanks PUFF for the translation. We appreate it a lot!

8th August 2006, 10:19 AM	#22
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 371	tang dimensions Hi all, herewith as suggested by Puff pictures and dimensions of tang on this piece. Hopefully you might be able to suggest an age. Also Puff you suggested that it was missing some pieces, what would you suggest is missing. The tang is 115mm long, and 18mm wide and 8 mm thick at the junction with the blade. From the excellent advice provided earlier in the thread I can say up close the tip seems to be Hua LukKai cheers Drd Attached Images

9th August 2006, 06:33 AM	#23
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,203	Puff: While you are helping out Dr David, would you mind classifying the tip on this daab. I'm of several minds what to call it, and even after viewing your pictures I'm not sure. Thanks. Ian.

9th August 2006, 12:08 PM	#24
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Interested Puff, I too am interested in that tip. And thanks for the boost in my confidence that my translation wasn't too far off, you did, as Andrew mentioned, add much that wouldn't be apparent from just a literal translation. My apologies for not contacting you while in Thailand, between serious computer problems and getting a house set-up in Lop Buri ... well next time I'll come more prepared I promise. As for the pictures of the swords of at the national museum. About two years(?) ago Khun Jarunee, one of the curators there was kind enough to take them down and have them photographed for us. She put them in a data base program called ACDsee which I am unfamiliar with (but I got it to print). I've been meaning to get the provenance she supplied translated, but it is once again another project that has been put to the rear. I can't promise that it'll get done anytime soon as I left the disk at the house in Lop Buri. Ian has a copy though (hint hint). Khun Dang Attached Images

10th August 2006, 12:23 PM	#25
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	I asked Khun Bancha about drdavid's blade tang. His suggestion is tang's style 's not old Ayuthaya. Could be 80-150 yo northern Thailand (Lumpang Utaradit or near by cities). The round/spatulated tang tip 's related to some nothern Thailand samples. Khun Dang 's blade 's difinitly Hua LukKai while Ian 's blade 's something between Hua LukKai and Hua PlaLod. I would like to put this one in Hua LukKai since its little beak might be used in the same way with that of Dahb Hua LukKai, which, I heard from MA, used for jabbing (into opponent 's wrist or arm) and disable one's combat ability. Last edited by PUFF; 10th August 2006 at 12:34 PM.

10th August 2006, 01:45 PM	#26
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 371	Thank you Hi Puff thanks for that. With my piece do you think it would have had a coin on the butt end (I have another which does and it looks like the same size hole to take a little nail in the centre of a coin)? Also is it likely to have had a spacer or metal collar near the hilt as the tang does not quite fit all the way into the hilt (I am pretty sure it is not just a blocked hole). Thanks again. DrD Attached Images

10th August 2006, 02:02 PM	#27
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,203	Puff: Thanks for the help. Ian.

16th August 2006, 09:23 PM	#28
cozun Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Ayutthaya - Thailand - most of the time that is. Posts: 7	A lot of information to contemplate Well, after all that input on this thread, I have to revise and update some of my own published information on my site. Expect the offer to be slighly different and wider in the upcoming months (concerning blade shapes I believe). For those who are interessted in Darbs made in the present days that is, not elder collection pieces (yet). Anyway, Puff, I believe we should meet and have a chat together, if you're interessted. Regards to all of you, Serge from coZun P.S. Special greetings to Khun Dan the Red and Mark Bowditch. I''ll write you guys soon.

17th August 2006, 01:13 PM	#29
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Welcome aboard, Serge.

18th August 2006, 08:26 AM	#30
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Hi Serge, I 'm living just 30 minutes drive from you. But I 'm quite busy until mid of next month. Will call you then.