Keris Melayu - all original & unmessed with

BluErf · 28th January 2007, 03:36 AM

This is as good as "originality" gets.

The sheath is original to the blade. The hilt was probably made to fit the pendoko. The pendok is original to the sheath. The hilt is in perfect proportion to the sampir.

The question I have is where did this Malay keris come from? The sheath form looks like it could be from Riau, but then again, it looks too broad and the jawa demam looks rather Malay Peninsula. If it is peninsular (which I am inclined to think), which part of the Peninsula? Kedah? Pahang? Has anyone seen a keris attributed to these parts of the Peninsula?

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

Battara · 28th January 2007, 09:00 PM

Wonderful piece and the grains and silver are beautiful.

One other possibility is that it is a chieftain's piece. I know that Bugis chieftain's keris' are wide with flashy grains like yours and similar pamor.

BluErf · 29th January 2007, 01:59 PM

I think this keris is a Malay keris, so it could be a Malay village headman's keris. The Bugis have pistol-gripped kerises, while the Jawa Demam hilt is usually associated with Malay kerises (though Malay kerises have pistol-grips too).

When I first saw this keris, its Southern Malay-ness attracted me. It was very Malay Malay, if I may say that.

rasdan · 29th January 2007, 04:09 PM

Hi Blu,

If the oversheath is original, I think it is higher than a headman's keris. A prince or a rich businessman perhaps. IMHO, original silver oversheath is very very rare for a Malay keris. Even the pusaka of the state of Pahang (a Bendahara descendant) does not have an oversheath. The pusaka of Selangor, a keris panjang (Berok Berayon) and Perak's pusaka keris Seri Gading didnt have an oversheath. But, of course old pusaka not nesscesarily have oversheaths. One keris with an original old silver oversheath is the Kapak Cina (not the one with the Banjarmasin hilt).

A. G. Maisey · 29th January 2007, 08:34 PM

Has the pendok tested as silver?

BluErf · 30th January 2007, 01:14 PM

Hello Rasdan,

Thanks for the information. Then it must be providence that Adni acquired another keris Melayu from a different source, with a different sampir form, but with an extremely similar silver pendok made by a different silversmith.

We were joking that the 2 kerises were brothers and had an agreement to arrive in Adni's shop at the same time, from different places.

Hi Alan,

I didn't test the pendok for silver, but when it was acquired, it had a yellow-brown patina on it. I used a silver cloth to polish the pendok back to it's current shiny state.

A. G. Maisey · 30th January 2007, 09:09 PM

G'day Kai Wee,

reason I asked is that I have seen several very similar pendoks, and pendoks with a similar standard of embossing that look very, very much like silver, but test as mamas, or some similar alloy.

I actually bought 3 or 4 Sumatra keris a few years ago with this sort of pendok. I was sure it was silver, and paid for them accordingly. When I tested, I found they were not silver.

In my experience, the patina on dirty silver tends to blackish, rather than yellow-brown. If I see a yellow-brown patina I immediately think "mamas".

Still this pendok might be silver, but I would definitely be inclined to test it. I test everything I ever get that looks like silver. The last bottle of silver test I bought cost me $12, and has lasted for years.

BluErf · 31st January 2007, 11:48 PM

Hello Alan,

Thanks for the advice. I'll go look for a bottle of silver test!

Come to think of it, there were some black coating on parts of the pendok that were a bit difficult to clean off, but best to test it for sure.

Btw, I've never heard of the term mamas. What is it?

A. G. Maisey · 1st February 2007, 12:23 AM

Mamas is that stuff that looks like silver, that gets sold as silver, native silver, low silver, low silver alloy, and anything else that sounds like it might be silver but is not, by dealers who are too lazy or too dishonest to test. Lots of those "silver" Javanese pendok are mamas. I don't know the exact analysis, but its supposedly something like a Chinese white metal alloy that is quite well known---pakalun, or some name like that. It is similar to white brass and nikel silver in appearence and behaviour.Its value is about one fifth of silver.
I buy silver test from a jeweller's supply store.

Battara · 1st February 2007, 12:36 AM

Most likely "mamas" is a form of "German Silver" or a nickel-copper mix. Can look like silver, but isn't. Lots of "silver" mounts on many Filipino/Moro pieces are actually this white metal mix.

BluErf · 1st February 2007, 12:46 AM

Thanks for the info. I think I know what mamas is. I have had a few pieces with metal parts which looked like silver, but looks harder and not so malleable.

I found a part on the pendok which I did not polish; just a few wipes with the silver polishing cloth. It looks black enough.

A. G. Maisey · 1st February 2007, 01:06 AM

Yep, it does. Almost a bit too black. I've had stuff in my hand that I would have sworn was silver. Only way to know for sure is to test.

David · 1st February 2007, 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Most likely "mamas" is a form of "German Silver" or a nickel-copper mix. Can look like silver, but isn't. Lots of "silver" mounts on many Filipino/Moro pieces are actually this white metal mix.

A lot of folks think that that stuff that we all call "German silver" actually has some small quantity of silver in it, but AFAIK it does not.

28th January 2007, 03:36 AM	#1
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Keris Melayu - all original & unmessed with This is as good as "originality" gets. The sheath is original to the blade. The hilt was probably made to fit the pendoko. The pendok is original to the sheath. The hilt is in perfect proportion to the sampir. The question I have is where did this Malay keris come from? The sheath form looks like it could be from Riau, but then again, it looks too broad and the jawa demam looks rather Malay Peninsula. If it is peninsular (which I am inclined to think), which part of the Peninsula? Kedah? Pahang? Has anyone seen a keris attributed to these parts of the Peninsula? http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php Attached Images

1st February 2007, 12:46 AM	#11
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Thanks for the info. I think I know what mamas is. I have had a few pieces with metal parts which looked like silver, but looks harder and not so malleable. I found a part on the pendok which I did not polish; just a few wipes with the silver polishing cloth. It looks black enough. Attached Images

28th January 2007, 09:00 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,217	Wonderful piece and the grains and silver are beautiful. One other possibility is that it is a chieftain's piece. I know that Bugis chieftain's keris' are wide with flashy grains like yours and similar pamor.

29th January 2007, 01:59 PM	#3
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	I think this keris is a Malay keris, so it could be a Malay village headman's keris. The Bugis have pistol-gripped kerises, while the Jawa Demam hilt is usually associated with Malay kerises (though Malay kerises have pistol-grips too). When I first saw this keris, its Southern Malay-ness attracted me. It was very Malay Malay, if I may say that.

29th January 2007, 04:09 PM	#4
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Hi Blu, If the oversheath is original, I think it is higher than a headman's keris. A prince or a rich businessman perhaps. IMHO, original silver oversheath is very very rare for a Malay keris. Even the pusaka of the state of Pahang (a Bendahara descendant) does not have an oversheath. The pusaka of Selangor, a keris panjang (Berok Berayon) and Perak's pusaka keris Seri Gading didnt have an oversheath. But, of course old pusaka not nesscesarily have oversheaths. One keris with an original old silver oversheath is the Kapak Cina (not the one with the Banjarmasin hilt).

29th January 2007, 08:34 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	Has the pendok tested as silver?

30th January 2007, 01:14 PM	#6
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hello Rasdan, Thanks for the information. Then it must be providence that Adni acquired another keris Melayu from a different source, with a different sampir form, but with an extremely similar silver pendok made by a different silversmith. We were joking that the 2 kerises were brothers and had an agreement to arrive in Adni's shop at the same time, from different places. Hi Alan, I didn't test the pendok for silver, but when it was acquired, it had a yellow-brown patina on it. I used a silver cloth to polish the pendok back to it's current shiny state.

30th January 2007, 09:09 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	G'day Kai Wee, reason I asked is that I have seen several very similar pendoks, and pendoks with a similar standard of embossing that look very, very much like silver, but test as mamas, or some similar alloy. I actually bought 3 or 4 Sumatra keris a few years ago with this sort of pendok. I was sure it was silver, and paid for them accordingly. When I tested, I found they were not silver. In my experience, the patina on dirty silver tends to blackish, rather than yellow-brown. If I see a yellow-brown patina I immediately think "mamas". Still this pendok might be silver, but I would definitely be inclined to test it. I test everything I ever get that looks like silver. The last bottle of silver test I bought cost me $12, and has lasted for years.

31st January 2007, 11:48 PM	#8
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hello Alan, Thanks for the advice. I'll go look for a bottle of silver test! Come to think of it, there were some black coating on parts of the pendok that were a bit difficult to clean off, but best to test it for sure. Btw, I've never heard of the term mamas. What is it?

1st February 2007, 12:23 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	Mamas is that stuff that looks like silver, that gets sold as silver, native silver, low silver, low silver alloy, and anything else that sounds like it might be silver but is not, by dealers who are too lazy or too dishonest to test. Lots of those "silver" Javanese pendok are mamas. I don't know the exact analysis, but its supposedly something like a Chinese white metal alloy that is quite well known---pakalun, or some name like that. It is similar to white brass and nikel silver in appearence and behaviour.Its value is about one fifth of silver. I buy silver test from a jeweller's supply store.

1st February 2007, 12:36 AM	#10
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,217	Most likely "mamas" is a form of "German Silver" or a nickel-copper mix. Can look like silver, but isn't. Lots of "silver" mounts on many Filipino/Moro pieces are actually this white metal mix.

1st February 2007, 01:06 AM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	Yep, it does. Almost a bit too black. I've had stuff in my hand that I would have sworn was silver. Only way to know for sure is to test.