Tulwar Hilted Shamshir

Interested Party · 15th August 2024, 06:04 PM

Hi all! I picked this small, possibly well used, Indian style sword at a reasonable price. I am looking for some honest feedback. I have some ideas about it, but I do not want to influence the discussion at this juncture. I have cleaned it with Balisol and a sponge and I am trying to decide if I should proceed with a polish and an etch eventually. I am a bit backlogged on restoration projects currently.

The sword's overall length of 32", 81cm. The blade is 28", 71cm tip to hilt. The edge measures 29 1/4", 74.2cm. Wedge shaped blade without the steep Indian edge grind. There are remnants of what appears to be a non-widening, unsharpened, lenticular shaped yelman of 6 1/4", 16 cm.

Interested Party · 15th August 2024, 06:05 PM

Here is a thirteenth picture.

Interested Party · 24th August 2024, 06:47 PM

Bump. Almost 1000 views and no ideas? I promise feedback won't hurt my feelings.

Jim McDougall · 24th August 2024, 09:13 PM

Its always incredible to see things like this posted, with tons of trolling but no entries. With Indian swords, most are either intimidated by them as they are a bit esoteric, or simply not interested (begs the question, then why read the post?). Pretty much standard forum mystery

This seems a pretty standard tulwar, probably Rajput, typical 19th c. but the blade is bit more curved than usual, not really a shamshir (note the 'Indian ricasso' ). I personally really like these rougher examples, fighting sabers. The Sikhs and and Rajputs were the most formidable warriors of all, and this deep curve lent well to the draw cut, meant business.

What are your ideas, lets compare notes,

Best
Jim

Ian · 25th August 2024, 06:30 AM

Thanks Jim for getting the replies started on this one. The blade does look typical NW India with a deep "bite" out of the edge just in front of the ricasso.

Interested Party · 25th August 2024, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

This seems a pretty standard tulwar, probably Rajput, typical 19th c. but the blade is bit more curved than usual, not really a shamshir (note the 'Indian ricasso' )....., and this deep curve lent well to the draw cut, meant business.

What are your ideas, lets compare notes,

Thanks, Jim, for taking a look. Yes Ian, Indian blades are intimidating for several reasons. They have a variety of silhouettes and nuisances of use. They came from a large variety of places, times, and cultures. Then there were the vast trading networks so that almost any blade manufactured in the old world could end up on this subcontinent. All this, plus a lot of BS has been written about them that a student has to sort through. This makes one wonder if what you know is true. Then there are the fakeries.....People are afraid of putting their foot in their mouth in front of a worldwide audience preserved for everyone to see. To get past this I think of this forum like auditing a class. Not much to lose and you learn more if you participate.

Let's start with the ricasso. It is sharp not blunt. The rest of the blade is pretty blunt. I think this blade has a fair bit of corrosion and got a quick clean and etch, to tart it up for sale. I think if it is a fighting blade the ricasso may be from repeated sharpening that started above the langets. That was one of the issues I hoped people would key in on. The cross section is almost lenticular shaped with a high point towards the back of the blade that portion being about 1/3 of the blade. Like a vestigial central ridge. This slopes towards the edge for 2/3 of the blade like a gradual convex wedge. There is no hint of the second steep flat grind to the edge seen on many Indian blades.

The second is the abrupt change in the etched pattern on both sides of the blade in the forte. This triggered several theories. 1) A repair. 2) It was hung at an angle not completely submerged in the etching solution. 3) a change in metal at the forte from the original manufacturing process.

These are some of the ideas I have been working through each with its own spider web process. I thought I would stop before I got too far out on a limb.

Thanks
IP

Ian · 25th August 2024, 08:24 PM

IP, your blade looks as though it has literally been through the wars. There is certainly evidence of repeated sharpening and likely damage repairs. Given its fighting heritage, I would give it a good clean when you have the time and etch it to better show some of the areas that appear damaged. You may get a clearer idea of what this old blade went through in its fighting career. Personally, I like exploring old warriors.

Regards,

Ian

David R · 25th August 2024, 09:55 PM

Hand forged pieces will never be "perfect", and given that blades and hilts seem to have been held separately in arsenals..... ya-gonna-see some odd combinations.
I have a shamshir style wootz tulwar blade with two welded pieces, despite it being thought impossible to weld wootz.

15th August 2024, 06:04 PM	#1
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 464	Tulwar Hilted Shamshir Hi all! I picked this small, possibly well used, Indian style sword at a reasonable price. I am looking for some honest feedback. I have some ideas about it, but I do not want to influence the discussion at this juncture. I have cleaned it with Balisol and a sponge and I am trying to decide if I should proceed with a polish and an etch eventually. I am a bit backlogged on restoration projects currently. The sword's overall length of 32", 81cm. The blade is 28", 71cm tip to hilt. The edge measures 29 1/4", 74.2cm. Wedge shaped blade without the steep Indian edge grind. There are remnants of what appears to be a non-widening, unsharpened, lenticular shaped yelman of 6 1/4", 16 cm. Attached Images

15th August 2024, 06:05 PM	#2
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 464	One more for luck. Here is a thirteenth picture. Attached Images

24th August 2024, 06:47 PM	#3
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 464	Bump. Almost 1000 views and no ideas? I promise feedback won't hurt my feelings.

24th August 2024, 09:13 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,938	Its always incredible to see things like this posted, with tons of trolling but no entries. With Indian swords, most are either intimidated by them as they are a bit esoteric, or simply not interested (begs the question, then why read the post?). Pretty much standard forum mystery This seems a pretty standard tulwar, probably Rajput, typical 19th c. but the blade is bit more curved than usual, not really a shamshir (note the 'Indian ricasso' ). I personally really like these rougher examples, fighting sabers. The Sikhs and and Rajputs were the most formidable warriors of all, and this deep curve lent well to the draw cut, meant business. What are your ideas, lets compare notes, Best Jim

25th August 2024, 06:30 AM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,194	Thanks Jim for getting the replies started on this one. The blade does look typical NW India with a deep "bite" out of the edge just in front of the ricasso.

25th August 2024, 08:24 PM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,194	IP, your blade looks as though it has literally been through the wars. There is certainly evidence of repeated sharpening and likely damage repairs. Given its fighting heritage, I would give it a good clean when you have the time and etch it to better show some of the areas that appear damaged. You may get a clearer idea of what this old blade went through in its fighting career. Personally, I like exploring old warriors. Regards, Ian

25th August 2024, 09:55 PM	#8
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	Hand forged pieces will never be "perfect", and given that blades and hilts seem to have been held separately in arsenals..... ya-gonna-see some odd combinations. I have a shamshir style wootz tulwar blade with two welded pieces, despite it being thought impossible to weld wootz.